I’ve been having fun around home working on de-piling the past week or so. It isn’t as though there were huge piles of stuff all over the house. Just little ones here and there, in this drawer and that, on this desk and that desk, in the basement, etc. Over the past several months I’ve had people give me sheet music, books, magazines, and other misc. stuff and I kept setting it aside until I had the energy to think about it. I think my January organizational burst didn’t kick in until February. My guess is I was too sleep-deprived in January, but now that I’ve been getting a bit more sleep and I’m less mentally foggy, I can actually get some of this stuff done. I can’t begin to tell you how gratifying it is to feel like I am finally getting on top of my life around here.
Speaking of sleeping… David and I have also been sleeping in more the past couple of weeks. Caroline has been sleeping from at least 11:00 p.m. to 4/5 a.m. which is an improvement. Some mornings we’ve fed her, put her back to bed, and we all haven’t gotten up until 7 or 8 which is really late for us. But we need more sleep. So more sleep = less blogging time.
I don’t think I’m going to write any more positive stories about what Caroline is doing now because every time I do, she stops doing it. She rolled over once and has since shown little real inclination to do it again. She such a content baby she’s happy to just lay on the floor, babbling and grabbing her feet. She won’t even go out of her way to go after a favorite toy that is within reach with a little effort. She’d rather just suck on her fingers. I’m glad she’s so content, but I think it also makes her a little unmotivated. Oh well. She’ll get it eventually. She slept eight hours through the night once and never since. She ate cereal well two days, I blogged about it, and now we’ve been back to wearing cereal instead of eating it. So no more blogging about this stuff! (I’m joking.)
Lindsey had an interesting discussion that’s related to my question of the week. She blogged about a book entitled Family Integrated Worship. Since I cannot figure out how to link to her post (?), here is the comment that especially jumped out at me.
Spunky said:
When I was growing up, the church we attended was family integrated. It was the Catholic church. When I became an adult and confessed Christ as my Savior, I began to read the bible and attend a Protestant church. I was 18. I was pleasantly surprised to see that this church was family integrated just like the Catholic church I grew up in. That was back in 1982. The pastor and his wife talked about the value of children being with their parents during Sunday worship. It made sense to me. After I married, we continued that practice until the present with our children. The two churches we attended for the longest were both family integrated.
Why do I enjoy it, because we are making attending church a family tradition. Not an individual event. I don’t mind attending a church that has the programs as long as they don’t mind us not participating in them. But it is nice when there is agreement in this area.
We had one church worker once ask my husband, “When are you going to let us have your children.” His reply, “I’m not spending the first 18 years of my children’s lives keeping them out of the sanctuary and praying for the next 18 that they come back in.” We’re building a habit of hearing God’s word as a family and talking about the things we hear throughout the week. I’m not about to make a doctrine out of this, but it has worked for the last 18 years and we’re not about to change a good thing now.
David and I have read a lot about FIW over the past few years. We are pretty convinced that we want Caroline to worship with us in the sanctuary and not put her in the nursery or little people’s church. (I don’t know if I can use the word “convicted” yet, but we’re close.) I haven’t looked around too carefully at church, but I know that if anyone else is doing this, there aren’t many. I don’t want to be a “problem” in our church, but we also want to do what we are convinced is best for Caroline and our family. We’ve already had a few comments about when will we be putting her in the nursery with her friends so I know that we’ll have to make a decision and stick with it soon.
So if you are in a non-family integrated church and you keep your baby with you (Caroline is 20 weeks old today), how do you “make it work?” I’m especially concerned about her being a distraction to those around us. We’re willing to make the sacrifice of our own ability to focus on worship, but I also want to be sensitive to those around us.
I like what Spunky said about it being a family habit. Caroline is just getting to the point where she will sit in my lap and attend to a book when I read it to her. (Oh, how I’ve longed for this day! I can hardly wait to share my love of reading with her!) So we feel that she’s getting to the point where we can start some family worship with her. David can read a short Bible passage and we can sing a few hymns. I think doing this daily at home will in a small way help prepare her for learning how to sit in church. (Or am I totally naive?)
Well, I’ll just throw this out there and the discussion can meander as the comments merit it. I’d also be interested in hearing if people started out keeping their baby with them in the service and gave up. Why did you give up? Do you regret giving up? Would you do something different if you could do it over again?
Living The Life I Used To Read About
The FI question has been looming for us as we try to find a new church. In these parts, nursery and programs are all the rage, so I’m not sure where we’ll end up.
This thread has been helpful!
Blessings,
Hi Sallie,
For once, I find myself in disagreement with you. I usually read your posts and nod my head in agreement the entire time! So this is a different experience, to say the least.
Although I’m not a parent, I think my parents did a wonderful job of raising me and my sisters in the church so I feel my experience may be insightful enough to offer my opinion on this topic. We attended a church where kiddos went to Sunday School and Children’s Church every Sunday until about 10 years of age. This church also had a service in the evenings but the kiddos attended this one with their parents (except for the very youngest, who were in nursery). I enjoyed my Sunday morning classes and although I did NOT enjoy Sunday nights as a child, I learned how to sit through a service quietly (usually with my daddy’s assistance…I would often fall asleep on his lap). Anyway, that’s pretty much the short summation of how I was raised…and the long-lasting effects of this method certainly weren’t to keep me away from the church — far from it! I’m very involved in my church and I’m a part-time missionary, so I hope that speaks highly of my parents and their methods of utilizing various opportunities for me and my sisters within the church. Basically, being kept out of the service had no detrimental effects on my own relationship with the Lord or my participation in the church.
Beyond that, however, I’d like to say also that I find small children in worship services to be very distracting. You said in your post that you and your husband are willing to sacrifice your own attention to the worship if need be, but that doesn’t seem to be the best approach, either. Please don’t think I’m being critical — it just sounds like you would be denying yourself food from the Word because you’d be so busy attending to your child. And if there are others like me in your church, they wouldn’t appreciate a squirmy, noisy child, either. And I say “squirmy†and “noisy†because I was exactly that as a young’un; I remember feeling tortured sitting still in services. I know that part of that was simply my learning experience on how to behave and sit still and pay attention, but I also think that one service was hard enough; I can’t imagine how I might have felt about church had I been made to sit still through several services in one day. As it was, I adored my classes and my teachers, and truly, it was there where I learned a love of the teaching of the Word. I used to come home with my papers and we’d review our Sunday School lessons around the Sunday dinner table — I LOVED those times with my family and being quizzed by my parents.
Anyway, thanks for reading through my comment here. Like I said earlier, there is no criticism from this corner…just my thoughts on my wonderful church experience.
Becky
I guess I just don’t get why Sunday School with the Bible crafts and such must be scheduled DURING the worship service. Why not have a worship service with the entire church, all together, and then do Sunday School for the kids while the parents have time to fellowship?
Mama Says
Zan, please don’t feel like a failure…I too have an active toddler…and sometimes it is just better for all concerned to be elsewhere. What I do with my active loud child is keep him in as long as possible and then leave. Some days he surprises me and is able to stay until just before the sermon starts, other days we are out even before the first song is played. 🙂
I have to admit, I dislike seeing children over the age of 5 being dismissed from church before the sermon starts. As a Sunday School teacher I am often surprised at what children understand from the sermon and what they will bring up even 2-3 weeks later that pertains to the sunday school lesson. They do learn, and the point of worshipping as a corporate body of believers is also an important thing to learn.
We left our former church (9 years ago) because their children’s church was just entertainment. (There were others reasons we left but that’s another story). The church we have been attending since does not dumb down their Sunday School (uses Grace Community Church’s materials)so we chose to put our children into the classes. When a child turns nine, they must sit in worship service. There are many families in our church who do not put their children in either SS or second hour and there has never been a problem with it. You hear a baby cry once in a while but the parents are quick to whisk them out or deal with it there. We now have an “overflow” room where they can go if they want to sit without disturbing anyone but still watch the service.
During our evening service, there is only a nursery so all children attend. We also have fellowship groups and children attend those also.
Sallie–
Just wanted to thank you for the way this post served as a reminder to me. In writing my response I realized I haven’t done as much with my youngest child as I did with the older ones, to teach him how to worship. After reading this discussion all week, this morning I made sure he had something to keep his hands busy and this morning during worship I pulled him close and whispered the words to the songs to him, one line at a time, right before we sang them. (He’s 5 and not fully reading yet.) I remembered, too, how much I love having all 6 of us worship together. 🙂 Great discussion!
We keep Daniel in with us for as long as we can. Then either hubby or I take him out to a back room if he gets too noisy, where the message is relayed through. Once out there we try and get him to sit quietly and look at books (easier said than done sometimes!)I usually stay home Sunday night, so David sits out in the morning (apart from today when he was preaching:)
Where I grew up, parents did not bring babies into the sanctuary but there were several rooms with video and audio links. From the age of 1-3 they could go to creche which was structured with a bible time and activity.
From 3 upwards they would sit in the first part of the service and then go out to age appropriate ‘morning school’. This was run on a rota basis thus allowing all adults to be in the teaching service most of the time.
I’m reading this with great interest Sallie 🙂
I just keep thinking of Jesus saying, Do not hinder the children in coming to me….
We do everything as a family. We eat out together. We do our hobbies together, yet when it comes to worship we’re *supposed* to be seperated so that adults aren’t distracted? I just don’t get it.
Anyhow this has been much enjoyed on my part! 🙂
I would just like to clarify what I mean by being distracted in a worship setting by small children. Basically, in order for me to learn something that I’m being taught, I need to be able to focus and concentrate, and random noises and movement interfere with my concentration. Now, I don’t think children should be excluded from a worship service for my sake only. If I were in the minority, I think the onus would be on me to rise above distractions. However, I know that MANY people require the same type of focus and concentration in order to learn, and I personally would never deny someone a quiet, undisturbed opportunity to learn from the Word of God. I think it comes down to a choice: is your ability to have your children with you in worship more important than someone else’s opportunity to learn without distraction? I think it’s a fair question.
Becky, it is the utmost importance that my children learn to worship the Lord and hear the gospel. I think it goes back to a heart attitude, is it about Jesus, or is it about us? Is my need for quiet more important than someone hearing the gospel? When we enter a church it isn’t so much to learn about Jesus as it is to exalt and praise His name. We were commanded to worship, not sit and hear fancy sermons. Don’t get me wrong; sermons are nice! And I’ve heard many that have changed my walk in the Lord. But in the end, we’re supposed to be exalting the name of Jesus. Sending kids off to a side room to color in workbooks so the adults can have their own quiet sermon time isn’t the same as worshipping God.
Just my thoughts, said in love. I realize you come from a different background not having children. I do try to be appreciative and we’re in process of training our children. They get loud or disruptive, they go out. It is learning how to act in God’s house. But please don’t make a broad sweeping rule that the sanctuary—the place of Worship isn’t open to children for the sake of the adults.
Back in Jesus’ day, I don’t believe the Jews seperated families in worship. The Catholic church (like em or not, they were the only church for MANY YEARS) does not encourage seperation in families in worship.
The whole concept of kids here, adults there is a completely MODERN IDEA that isn’t as dated as some might think. It has only been around about 200 years since the inception of sunday school.
I started putting my first daughter in the nursery around nine months of age and she loved playing with the toys. My second daughter, however, would not be consoled in the nursery and so I just kept her with me. I was so used to having my babies with me that when my other children arrived, it was natural to have them stay with me. I have stayed in the cry room during those early months and would listen to the sermon piped into the room. It was wonderful to fellowship with the other mothers in the cry room on Sundays that even though I didn’t always catch the sermon, I came away refreshed.
My oldest daughters attended the children’s church for two years at a small church where we thought we knew everybody. Unfortunately, my friend’s young daughter was molested by an older boy in the church (he was 16, I think) and we found out afterwards that while the pastors knew about the situation, they made no efforts to keep the boy away from the young children or even to inform the parents that a serial molester had access to the children’s church.We left that church shortly afterwards and decided to keep our children with us in the service. What started out as a desire to protect our children has developed into a real blessing to our family as we love worshipping together. Our family enjoys talking about the sermons after church and it is amazing how much children really do understand.
While every family situation is different, our family stays together every Sunday and is grateful for the church time that brings us closer to each other and the Lord.
Ok, before I can head to the Lazy Boy this evening I need to respond here! These are going to be kind of random thoughts…
Caroline did pretty well in church today. I held her during the first part of the service and David held her the second half. She was getting restless though just before the sermon started so he took her out to the narthex and walked around with her. This was her normal naptime and she obviously needed it and wasn’t getting it! It just drove home to me today how she thrives on routine and structure. Obviously her need for that doesn’t override our need to go to worship each week, but children need structure and routine. I know that as a former teacher and now I “know” it as a mama.
We stopped to get something to eat on the way home from church, something I think we’ve only done one other time with her. By the time we got home, she was about ready for her second naptime of the day. When we took her upstairs to change her and put her down for a nap, her entire countenance changed. She was HAPPY to be home. There is no other way to describe it. She was looking around at everything and was obviously delighted to be there. I would never have expected to see that in one so young. It was very striking to both of us.
I have to admit that I see both sides of this situation which is what makes it challenging. When I took her into the nursery to change her today before the service started, one of the nursery workers asked me about when Caroline would start coming to the nursery. I told her we were still working through that decision about what to do. And we are. While I was in there with her, Caroline was obviously interested in what the other children were doing. It made me think for a few minutes that maybe we’re making a mistake by making her sit through the service with us.
As you can tell, we’re still working through this decision.
Re: Becky’s comment about needing to concentrate. Believe me, I understand. I primarily worship with my mind so I understand and I prefer to sit way down front to minimize the number of things that distract me during a service. But I have to agree with Lindsey’s thoughts too. Does my “need” to worship a certain way to “maximize my experience” override Caroline’s “need” to learn how to worship at all? I completely agree that if a child is out of control and is very distracting that he/she needs to leave immediately and I would definitely do that with Caroline. But if she’s distracting because she makes a few quiet cooing noises, squeals once, and is just too cute peeking over Daddy’s shoulder for a few minutes… does that mean she’s being a distraction and shouldn’t even be there? Yes, I want to be able to concentrate on my worship while I am there, but does that mean I should insist that my fellow church members not bring their children into the service at all? Where is the fine line between what is best for the community of believers and the individual believers?
Lots of good thoughts shared so far! I look forward to reading more. Thank you for keeping the tone so gracious! 🙂
Lindsey,
I disagree that I was making a broad, sweeping rule about children and worship. I was pointing out the fact that most of the parents I know send their little ones off to classes after our praise time/singing portion of the service and I have heard numerous parents express their appreciation for the classes and the chance to just focus on the message and their “mind worship” as Sallie so wonderfully put it. And since there is no Biblical stipulation about church worship and children, I was trying to say that perhaps the majority opinion should rule in this case (and if the majority opinion in your church is different, then the conclusion should be different).
Also, it saddens me to hear that your church only offers coloring/generic activities for children during the worship hour. My own experiences were rich, stimulating, and highly educational. I treasured my teachers and like my first comment stated, my parents used my classwork later on in the day to quiz me on what I had learned. Essentially, my children’s church experience was 100% learning to worship the Lord and hearing the Gospel. Inside the sanctuary with one’s parents is not the only way for a child to learn to worship and hear the Gospel, and I think that was what I was trying to point out.
I would also like to point out that I was referring to “small children.” I think when kids are of an age where the sermon would not be “above their heads” so to speak, then that is the time to transition them away from children’s classes. I myself was transitioned pretty early, although I think each child is different.
I guess all in all, I’m a purist when it comes to the sacredness of worship. I think it should be quiet and focused on Jesus alone, not on the 3-year-old munching on Cheerios and loudly speaking to his mommy in the pew ahead of me. However, this is just my opinion and I know that you, among others, disagree. Thank you for expressing your counter opinion in love; I really do appreciate that. One final comment: I’m very glad to hear that when one of your children starts to get loud, etc., that you take them out…however, I must point out that not every parent is like you. I don’t know how many times I’ve been in a service where a toddler started screaming and pitching a fit and the parent didn’t even blink, let alone remove the child and deflate the potential distraction. And in those situations, it’s impossible not to notice the heads turning to look in that direction, and that always creates a huge distraction. I’ve even been in services where the pastor, in ultimate frustration, kindly requested that the child be soothed outside of the sanctuary. Perhaps these are extreme examples, but I have seen a lack of sensitivity to others displayed by parents who keep their children in services. I think my only motivation in commenting (and continuing to comment) on this is to just point this out and urge sensitivity to your fellow worshippers. Thanks for hearing me out.
just a thought, Sallie – Caroline will probably stay healthier through the winter if you don’t put her in the nursery until the worst of the germy season is over, even if you do think of doing it later.
Tracy – Yes, this is why we haven’t put her in the nursery so far. She was too little and we wanted to keep her healthy and avoid the flu if at all possible. So far she’s been healthy and we’re thankful and glad for her (and us!).
Re: the quality of the chldren’s program. I guess that is a different issue for me. Whether the children’s program offers quality or not doesn’t answer for me whether God is calling us as a family to worship together. I am guessing our church probably has a very good program just based on the high level of quality of everything else they do. But the question we’re asking ourselves is… Does Caroline need to worship with us from Day 1 in order to fulfill God’s purposes in her life? That’s what we are figuring out. 🙂
If our church had a lot of children in the nursery, I would not put my kids in because of all the germs. I guess I would just stay in the quiet room or in the back hall.
As a stay-at-home mom, I’m a big fan of Sunday school. I look forward to an hour a week where I get to sit quietly with God and my husband while our son is downstairs having fellowship with his peers. He is 2 1/2 year old.
The Sunday school program at our church is wonderful and the volunteers give 100%. The children sing worship songs, hear a Bible story, do a related craft, play, and share snack time together. My son looks forward to it every week (“Sunday school! Hooray!”) and can’t wait to show us his artwork (“Look Mommy, we can hang it on the fridge!!”). We’d much rather see him enjoying church than throwing a royal fit in the sanctuary.
Let’s face it, at a young age they are getting nothing out of the adult sermon and the boredom is just too much for them to handle. There is no way our son would be able to sit still with us during a service, and he wouldn’t see us doing any worshiping since he’d be too busy running in and out of the foyer. At this point in time he’s getting much more out of the activities that are on his level.
Our church encourages middle school kids and older to worship with their parents during services. The church has a “Sunday school” program available for them outside of the standard worship service times.
I agree with the person who said it’s just one of those decisions every family has to make for themselves. I don’t think it’s a sin issue.
I disagree that they are not getting anything from it at a young age. When Katie was 2 and normally went to SS, we took her in with us at Christmas because we thought she would enjoy the Christmas music and the decorations. A few days later I was gathering some things to take to a local charity and she asked what I was doing. When I told her she said, “Your guy (referring to the pastor) said that’s not really a sacrifice.” She was right–he had been speaking that week on what it really means to sacrifice something. After her comment she and I talked for several minutes about what it means to sacrifice something that’s important to you or something you love, and how much Jesus sacrificed for us.
Do I think she understood everything he was saying? No. But she understood part of it, and it led to more discussion at home, which she did understand. I think we really tend to underestimate how much they can understand at an early age, if they have learned to pay attention.
Also, while I agree that if children are creating a disturbance they should be taken out and dealt with, I don’t follow the logic that, “Some kids are disturbing and some parents don’t take them out when they are, therefore no parents should bring their kids in the service.” That doesn’t make any sense to me.
It does make it easier for us that the people in our church have a good attitude, but I would not make ANY decision regarding what’s best for my children based solely on someone else’s opinion, majority or not.
It’s not for everyone, but we really like worshiping as a family and the results we are seeing.