This is going to be a very round about way to get to my point so bear with me!
I’ve mentioned before that I am a member of a sorority. My sorority has a private side to their website where we can connect with other Tri Deltas from around the world. Kind of like a Facebook, I guess, but for members only. I recently received an invitation from one of my sorority sisters from college inviting me to join so I decided I would.
So I was filling out my profile which was pretty easy. Profession, location, languages (I entered “Toddler”), etc. Until I got to the religion section. There was a pull down menu with a whole bunch of choices and I didn’t know what to pick! Protestant isn’t specific enough. Christian definitely isn’t specific enough. Baptist? Well, I was Baptist for a good portion of my life, but I really don’t feel comfortable defining myself as a Baptist any longer. Christian Reformed? I’m a member of a CRC church, but I honestly don’t “feel” like a part of the Christian Reformed subculture and don’t necessarily line up very well theologically. Well enough to be a member but not well enough that I could be an apologist for the denomination. (And I’m not telling tales out of school. My pastor reads my blog.)
So anyway, I picked Christian Reformed since that is the church I am a member of right now. But I haven’t been totally comfortable with that.
And that brings me to the new poll! You knew I’d get there eventually!
David and I have discussed this topic off and on for months and it has to do with our default mode of thinking.
It seems that there are two default modes of thinking among Christians. (And I recognize that I’m generalizing here.)
There is the group who would operate from the default mode of “Come out and be ye separate.” They are more focused on being in the world but not of it. They do not totally withdraw from the culture like the Amish, but they definitely have a view of not embracing too much of the culture. Their first instinct would be to back off from the culture in a situation. I would say this is more the Baptist view with which I grew up although it is definitely not exclusively Baptist. There are many other denominations that would fall into this as well.
The other mode of thinking is what I would call the “Embrace and engage the culture” mode. This is more the idea of really getting involved with the culture and trying to transform it. Their first instinct is to jump in and try to change the situation in which they find themselves. This is very much the mindset of the CRC to which we now belong. It would also apply to other denominations as well and is a very Reformed way of thinking. (BTW… A very interesting and accurate critique of this mindset is here: Why Are There Never Enough Parking Spaces at the Prostrate Clinic. I highly encourage you to read the first half of it at least.)
So David and I have discussed this. His default mode is “Embrace and engage the culture” which makes sense because he grew up in a Reformed denomination. Mine is “Come out and be ye separate.” It is actually a good thing that we approach life differently because it probably has kept us from extreme error in either direction.
We both see the value in each view. I believe each view is biblical when not taken to an extreme. But it was helpful for us to understand how the other reacts to the world on the most basic, instinctive method.
So what is your default way of thinking? Feel free to vote in the poll and leave a comment.
Morning Message on the Easel and Print-Rich Environment
My default mode is come out and be ye separate. I am Catholic and went to Catholic school, and certainly the default mode growing up was that while we lived in the world, we needed to be separate to preserve our traditions and faith.
There is great debate in American Catholicism now about where we go from here. Historically in America for the past couple of decades, we’ve become a people that tries to embrace and engage the culture, to get along, and I believe this has been a great failure. I personally am starting to believe that observant Catholics are going to become more and more apart from the world, while living in it.
Wow.
I’m home alone today and this will give me much food for thought as I accomplish many domestic tasks.
The only way I have been able to describe myself lately is that I want to live an emergent-ish life while worshiping in a litergical-ish way.
I grew up Baptist with grandparents who all left the CRC.
I wish I were better at feelings. My life to this point (50 years) has been mostly about striving to think correct thoughts.
Quite the possibility that I have missed a lot.
Funny. You and David sound like Si and me! I think we both have a balance, but if I were to say in which direction we’re most likely to lean, well, he would be “engage the culture” and I would be “be ye separate.” Sometimes I think this might have to do with context. I’m at home with very young children who aren’t ready to “engage” a lot of what is out there in the culture. He, on the other hand, is surrounded by the world daily and remaining separate wouldn’t offer any hope to his co-workers. You are so right about the balance keeping us from error! Si definitely pushes me out of my comfort zone whenever appropriate, and I know he appreciates my instinctive protection of our home and our children (though I have agreed not to treat them as “children” forever! 🙂 )
I guess I am more of a “come out and be separate” and my husband is more of an “embrace and engage”. (I suspect he would heartily recommend Miroslav Volf’s book Exclusion and Embrace to this discussion, but I haven’t read it myself.)
I also think that there are two levels to this: cultural and individual. For sure I see my husband making friends right and left with people who are about as far from being Baptists as you could get, people who feel they have no hope of being welcomed and accepted in a “separated” church. On the other hand, I probably would be very uncomfortable in an “engaging” church, because I’d hear too much that I just don’t agree with Biblically. I think the Church as a whole needs both modes.
Judy said “The only way I have been able to describe myself lately is that I want to live an emergent-ish life while worshiping in a litergical-ish way. ”
This is so me too, though I can’t really explain it.
I think I have been burned by the mainstream evangelical seperatist (even a little speratist) culture that I am really critical of it now. I understand it. As someone else said, having young children, we are speratist in some ways. Though, I am almost as nervous that my kids are getting the pray the prayer, are you going to get saved rethoric from Christian situations as I am worried about them hearing a cuss word here or there on secular radio. I think the previous can be as damaging in some situations. Does that make since?
I SO identify with the struggles you have described so well. I think you’d enjoy the daily devotionals written by John Fisher. (Go to http://www.fischtank.com to subscribe or read some of his articles.) He does a better job than most of illustrating how Jesus has called us to be “in” this world, yet “out” of it too.
He’s a songwriter, also used to write for PurposeDrivenLife.
My children both tell me they have bipolar theology and it is all because of their mother.
I was saved during a revival in a Wesleyan church and spent a few years there.
My most important years as a young Christian were spent in a Presbyterian church where I did much of my early theological studies, especially in the reading of people like Francis Schaeffer.
We then went back to the Wesleyan church, which we found the best when we lived in Western Michigan.
Hubby was raised a Lutheran but is mostly Charasmatic so I now attend a non-denominational Charasmatic church (albeit a very quiet one at that since there are a lot of professors and scientists who attend).
My theology is still very Reformed but the Wesleyan part of me peeps out once in awhile.
Like I said, my kids call it bipolar theology. My two favorite “religious” authors are Francis Schaeffer and John Piper… go figure. 🙄
I put neither but then realised I maybe should have put ‘other’…..but you know what, Actually I think I am ‘come out and be ye seperate’. But not to extremes. I was raised in Spurgeon’s Tabernacle, London (well, not literally. but you know what I mean) and know that our church was (and still is) viewed by some as being too strict. But I understand and mostly agree with the stands taken. I am still in a like minded church- in fact in some ways this one is stricter.My own views have changed a little over the years though. My husband is def come out and be ye seperate. It would be interesting to know what level of seperateness people are referring to.
Are we saying seperate in worship styles or theology (in which case def sep) or more lifestyle as well like no cinema/no popular music-in which case I am less seperate.
On the whole ’embrace’ front- we can never interact if we don’t try to understand- i fully believe that. But I also believe that non believers see through our attempts to embrace all and fit it to our faith. For example, a church here once put up a big screen and showed an important England football match on a Sunday and had NO services at all. People came for the food and atmosphere- but it was the trigger point for some memebrs to leave – the last straw as it were, and those who attended were not then found in worship services where the message of salvation was preached. In fact I heard people say that they knew the church was only trying to ‘get them in’. I know we are to be fools for Christ, but we are not to make the church of Christ a place of fools by too much embracing- the world sees through it!
If I’m totally honest with myself I have to say that I tend to the “be ye separate” end of the spectrum, although I wish I could say that I’m naturally an “embracer and engager” of the culture because that is what Jesus did.
Honestly, embracing and engaging those who are not likeminded is hard for me to do. However, my husband does it well (he has to, he’s a professor at a secular university) so I think we compliment each other well. We both have reformed presbyterian theological backgrounds so for us I’d say this is more of a personality issue rather than a theological one.
I don’t embrace, but I am engaged. I do not feel called to totally separate myself from the rest of the world, but I am always praying for discernment to know what to shun and what is okay to embrace. My separation is more about guarding my heart & mind. There are things within “church culture” now that I’m careful about too! But at the same time, I am engaged and interact with the culture.
My arts/design background has made it hard not to be somewhat engaged, and I have friendships from all walks of life. They know where I stand, and I’m not afraid to share my beliefs with them. I have been a member of the Southern Baptist denomination since I was 8 years old.
I meant to share this story and forgot. It will illustrate better where my Baptist/CRC and Separate/Engage conflict comes in…
The flagship CRC college holds a large writing and faith conference every few years. They bring in publishers and authors from all over – both Christian and secular. They also bring in some big name authors. When I went several years ago, they had a large session with some Big Name Author Guy who I think had won a Pulitzer Prize. He was not a Christian and was very vocal about it. My friend (who I had encouraged to come and was even more conservatively Baptist than me) and I sat in the session and grew increasingly turned off by what was happening. Big Name Author Guy was on the platform chatting in an easy chair with some Conversation Making Guy from the conference. Big Name Author Guy was very eloquent. Very eloquent. And Big Name Author Guy eloquently went on and on about all sorts of negative things about God. (To be honest, I’ve blocked most of it out and can’t even tell you what he said now.) But I could tell my Writer Friend sitting next to me was becoming more and more offended by Big Name Author Guy. And I felt badly because I invited her to the conference. And I was also getting increasingly irritated with this huge room full of Christians who were lapping up the garbage coming out of Big Name Author Guy’s mouth. They were hanging on his every word. There were at least several hundred people in the room. A few people got up and left. Finally my friend had enough and got up and left. I followed her.
I have to tell you that it really soured me on the CRC as a denomination and I would not even consider visiting a CRC church for years while we were looking for a new church. We are now members of a CRC church because we liked the congregation we found in a round about way. But I am still uncomfortable with the denomination’s willingness to embrace what I feel is way too much of the culture while attempting to engage it.
The CRC sounds something likie the FIEC over here. (fellowship of independent evangelical churchs) While there are some fine examples in this group, the overall body is accepting of things which were not compatible with what we believed scripture to say about seperation. Consequently our chuch left tjay grouping.