If you’ve been coming to this blog for any significant amount of time, you know I generally avoid anything controversial here. There are lots of blogs that deal with hot Christians issues and this isn’t one of them. However, I read something today that bothered me so much I have to address it.
First, some background.
Grand Rapids is a city of churches. If you’ve never been here, you really can’t imagine it. I don’t know what the density of churches is per square mile around here, but in some parts of town you drive past literally dozens of churches in just a few miles, sometimes two or three of the same denomination within just a mile or two. We have LOTS of churches here.
The largest church in Grand Rapids is Mars Hill Church. It runs around 10,000 people and is a church plant of Calvary Church, a church that has generally been a solid, gospel-preaching church. Rob Bell is the teaching pastor of Mars Hill. He is 34 and we both grew up in the same area (East Lansing/Haslett/Lansing). I do not know him, but I know people who know him well. We never attended the same church, but the church he grew up in was a solid gospel-preaching church for many years.
Anyway, he has now written a book, published by Zondervan we’re-afraid-we’ll-lose-a-sale-so-we’re-open-on-Sunday Publishers. The book is entitled Velvet Elvis: Repainting the Christian Faith. Today in the Grand Rapids Press there was an interview/article with Bell. I literally about threw up when I read parts of it because it upset me so much. Here are a few excerpts.
Bell also shakes up traditional evangelical beliefs. While calling Christ’s way “the best possible way to live,” Bell writes Jesus did not claim one religion is better than another when he said he was “the way, the truth and the life.” Rather, he writes, “his way is the way to the depth of reality.”
As a follower of Jesus, Bell argues, he is free to claim the truth wherever he finds it.
“One of the lies is that truth only resides in this particular community or that particular thought system,” Bell said. “I affirm the truth anywhere in any religious system, in any worldview. If it’s true, it belongs to God.”
What does that mean for salvation? Bell says it’s a question he’s wrestling with.
“I think you have to begin to ask questions about whether Jesus died for everybody or just a few,” he said. “I challenge the notion that the cross is just for a couple people who happen to say some particular prayer or happen to be in some sort of inside club. I think it goes way bigger.”
Sprinkled throughout are his own spiritual awakenings and struggles, from first feeling in awe of God at a U2 concert to freaking out over the demands of Mars Hill.
All I have to say is that if Mr. Bell thinks he was freaking out about the demands of Mars Hill, I cannot begin to imagine how he might freak out when he stands before the throne someday and may have to give an account for the fact that he apparently is preaching a false gospel to tens if not hundreds of thousands of people. It seems Mr. Bell overlooked the fact that this is the WHOLE verse in the Bible he was apparently called to teach as a teaching pastor:
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.“
John 14:6
You can take this link and read the whole thing. (2022 – Article no longer available online)
Randy Buist
Sallie,
Just wanted you to know that you are always invited to join the conversation of emergent west michigan. 🙂 Our next gatherings are posted at
http://emergentwestmichigan.blogspot.com
Always in His grace.
Sallie
Randy,
Thank you for the invitation to visit the emergent spot for West Michigan. I will make a point of stopping by there to read what is going on.
I know you probably haven’t had much of an opportunity to read what I have posted here on this blog over the past five months, but I can assure you I am one of the last people on earth who would defend the current state of the church, and more specifically evangelicalism, in general. I find what is going on in a lot of churches embarassing at best and downright sickening at worst. I know I am making some generalizations here, but I think the church has sold out, has ceased being relevant in its desperate attempt to be so, and is a weak, crippled organization instead of a vibrant, healthy organism.
I’ve also written before on this blog (in vague ways only) about some of the abuses my husband and I have suffered at the hands of various Christians who thought they had it all figured out. This has included charismatics, anabaptists, and just generally patriarchial, conservative Christians.
HOWEVER, and this is the big however, these experiences have made us MORE committed to the truth of the Scriptures and seeking out the God who has revealed Himself in those same Scriptures. There were many long stretches in which the ONLY thing that got my husband and me through those times was the steadfast conviction that the God of the Scriptures was constant, true and faithful.
So, rather than throw the baby out with the bathwater, my husband and I became MORE committed to finding the proper balance between grace and truth. But it always has to come back to the Scriptures. I am sure like any other follower of Christ we have blind spots based on our own failings and experiences. But everything has to come back to the Scriptures and the God who has revealed Himself to us through those very words. If we don’t have that, we have nothing.
It seems to me that the more I read about the emergent movement in general, they HAVE thrown the baby out with the bathwater. Because of abuses in the church, abusive pastors, abusive congregations, Scripture twisting and the like, emergent folks have chosen to set aside the great truths and terminology of the Scriptures in order to make it something comfortable both to themselves and the people they “converse” with. I think this is a huge mistake. The greatest growth in my spiritual life has ALWAYS come through being in the Scriptures whether through expository preaching, Bible study or general reading related to the Scriptures.
I believe the church should be a fellowship of believers, committed to each other and committed to using their gifts for the building up of the body. I believe the church should be proclaiming the truths of the Scriptures, especially in a world where “truth” is constantly for sale and up for grabs. True Christ-centered relationships with other believers is one of the most precious gifts God can give us on this earth. BUT I cannot have those relationships based on nothing more than vague dialogue. There has to be a basis in the truths of God’s word for true fellowship. We have been in a few churches where we had lots of good opportunities for “fellowship” and “relationships” but the teaching of the Scriptures was shallow. Given the choice, I’ll take meat and loneliness over milk and “relationships” every single time. However, it is profoundly sad that we feel we have to choose between the two. It should not be that way.
Well, that’s it. There’s no hostility here, just a desire to clarify my thoughts on some of the topics that have come up. I also wanted to say that I’m assuming your comments about the “two talents” was not a slam against this site where you have been, I think, treated fairly and generally in a kind way. I have a strict policy here about promptly deleting posts that cross the line and so far I don’t think any have.
In Christ,
Sallie
Randy Buist
Sallie,
Your last post was very generous. Thanks. On a related note, I’ve been involved with emergent village (a small segment of the emerging church in northe america), and I have yet to find someone who is compromising truth.
I’ve been incredibly frustrated… as we have tried to re-define ecclesiology in this century, there have been accusations that simply haven’t been fair. Most of the accusations come from people who read one small piece or read one small newpaper article.
For those who sit at the feet of Rob Bell, you don’t find people questioning his biblical scholarship. In fairness, good teachers are always questioning and looking at Scripture in slightly different ways… we can go back to Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Barth, Ortberg, Graham…
It seriously troubles me when I hear about people having conversations about whether McLaren or some other emergent voice is ‘saved.’ In all of my frustrations with the evangelical church, never have I nor emergent voices gone so far as to question the salvation of mainline/evangelical/traditional voices. Generally, we see the issue with the institution rather than with one or seventeen voices…
With the criticisms of emergent, the critics have clearly leveled the guns in a much different way…
While critics may not like the writings of McLaren, Kimball, Jones, or Pagitt, they are not out of bounds biblically. I would argue that many, if not most, of their theology is more correct when looked at through the broader lens of biblical history…
I suspect some of the ‘liberal’ language is the result of many voices being for things that are now ‘liberal’ from the perspective of american politics… against war, against the death penalty, for the poor and those without health care, for good education for everyone, and for protection of the law for everyone… you get the idea… you’ll also find these people to be largely anti-abortion, for government that holds people accoutable, and for good biblical exegesis…
In His Grace,
randy
Sallie
Randy,
Perhaps part of the problem is that whenever we use a term to describe ourselves, we have to suffer along with the implications of that term. So while you may know that your theology is “spot on” and the theology of Rob Bell is “spot on”, being associated with a movement that may have some vocal leaders or just general folk who are shooting off like loose cannons will reflect on you whether you want it to or not.
When I wrote my “What I Believe” and “About Sallie” sections for this blog, I struggled with how much to say and how much not to say. As soon as you put a label on yourself to help people understand your general approach to life and your faith, people have all kinds of preconceived notions about what you must really be like. And I didn’t want some of those labels because I didn’t feel I could clearly define my take on them as I would want to.
For example, I struggled with whether or not I should mention that I had been on staff with InterVarsity Christian Fellowship for a few years. I’m not ashamed of it, but I also am not in agreement with some of what is going on in that organization nationally. Since leaving staff about nine years ago, my impression is that IVCF has moved further left and I have moved further right (for lack of better terminology). On the other hand, my time with IVCF was spent with some very fine, godly folks in my area and region. God truly used my time on staff to teach me a lot. I made friends with staff and students alike. Two of the women students I discipled while on staff were bridesmaids in my wedding and are still friends. I learned so much theologically and had the blessing of being in a region with a lot of theologically Reformed folks who were an important instrument in my spiritual growth. Now did some of the things about Urbana make me cringe? Yes. Am I in complete agreement with the IVCF stand on women in ministry? No. Do I like the fact that they used a gender neutral Bible at Urbana the year I went and changed the words to some of the classic hymns during worship? NO (and don’t even get me started there!). But if I say I was a part of IVCF and don’t list all of the things I don’t agree with, people will automatically assume that I AM in agreement with those things. So I can relate to your frustrations.
While it may be fair or not, we are judged by the company we keep. I’m judged by the blogs that I link to on my site, the blogs I say I read, and every little phrase I use here. (Fortunately I think I list a broad enough spectrum of blogs that I read that I can’t be pigeon-holed beyond fairly conservative Christian with a Reformed view of faith and I’m comfortable with that.) We live in a climate today where this is just the reality. I think Christians who really care about God’s name and what is done in His name are so thoroughly sickened and frustrated by the abuse of “truth”? in this culture and the church, that they are quick to jump on ANYTHING that smacks of error. I think that is what you are seeing in the widespread criticism of the emergent movement. Until it clearly defines itself and as long as there is a “liberal”? vocal group associated with it, you are going to be defined, unfortunately, by the least common denominator. Is it fair? Probably not. Is it thoroughly frustrating? Yes. But is it the reality of things? I think so.
So to help you understand who I am, I will now more thoroughly label myself. Wrap your mind around this.
I am a raised Baptist General Conference Baptist, turned independent fundamentalist Baptist, turned Reformed/Baptist, former InterVarsity Christian Fellowship staffer, two year college sorority president, always been alcohol abstaining, happily trying to be a submissive wife who met her husband online, who loves to read and study theology who doesn’t think women should be senior pastors, who loves to teach the Bible, write and converse with people, who would rather sit and talk with men about faith, theology and the world than talk with women about housekeeping, babies and coupons, who loves to minister one-on-one with women and lead women’s Bible studies, who picks up pennies in the parking lot at Target and keeps all the found change in jar but will also spend $100+ on a pleated plaid Pendleton skirt, who has the spiritual gifts of discernment, exhortation and leadership but has yet to find a church/denomination where I can properly use my gifts and where people will understand without thinking me an aberration or a divisive person in the church.
Thanks again for writing,
Sallie
Randy Buist
a few thoughts since you put so much time into that last post:
~ changing some words to be gender inclusive may not be so bad for a song – they aren’t the Bible. Not to pick on you, but it goes to show how much we want to protect our traditions… the Greek N.T. and the Hebrew O.T. on several occasions used feminine words for the Spirit. So, maybe a bit of gender inclusiveness isn’t so bad. But, I don’t want to get you started.
~ I hope you can find a place where you can use that gift of preaching… and from a biblical standpoint, pastor and senior pastor are no different. From you description of yourself, it sounds like you are already pastoring if you want to admit it or not. As a reformed Christian, embrace the priethood of all believers and be done with the struggle…
~ You made me smile tonight. Thanks.
~ As for the people with whom we keep company, you may be right. And ultimately I am glad who God has placed around me. I find Brian McLaren, Doug Pagitt, Ivy Beckwith, Todd Hunter, and even Tony Jones more gracious and grace filled with their words than Don Carson, Ron Gleason, or Carla over at emergent no.
I guess i would rather falter on the side of allowing lots of sins and sinners in my midst than judging people too much. Biblically, it isn’t our job to protect truth. God will do this. If he is all powerful, then we don’t need to protect the kingdom. It will forever stand. I would rather be on the side of getting too much riff-raff into the castle than trying to kick them out because they stink. After all, we all stink.
From being introduced to this discussion nearly fifteen years ago prior to the existence of emergent village, I believe this conversation has much more to do with ecclesiology (the way we define the church) than it does with liberal/conservative.
I beleive that conservatives get terribly nervous when we start to question assumptions of the past two hundred years that are not based within the canon but from our traditions.
For example, if we open the Lord’s Supper, the table, to children? Or what if we allow non-believers to partake? These are not clearly defined in Scripture, but you can quickly be fired upon for suggesting most any change to the frequency, availablity, size of the portions, or anything connected with the Lord’s Supper.
Why? I hear the words of Fiddler on the Roof… “TRADITION.”
In fairness, if anyone wants to do the exegesis that defends old Lord’s Supper practices, then let’s do them. I’ve spent days looking at this matter, and our historical traditions within evangelicalism suck… they are the result of bad exegesis for way too long.
Likewise, McLaren’s most recent book… it gets into our ideas about hell… and if we are honest, bad translations along with visions from elsewhere such as Dante’s ‘Inferno’ have created visions of hell that are far from biblical.
So, in fairness, my more liberal minded friends have done better exegesis than even Don Carson.
As for myself, I love people who extend so much grace to others that they remind me of a very real and biblical Jesus…
In His Grip,
randy
Sallie
Randy,
Thanks for sticking around and exchanging thoughts. I hope it the midst of the frustrations you are experiencing in your search for God, you found some positive encouragement here. I wish you well.
In Christ,
Sallie
Sallie
Thanks to everyone who has been involved in this discussion either by commenting or just reading each day. I GREATLY appreciate that I didn’t have to delete a single comment. Kudos to you!
Since this kind of topic is not the focus of this blog, I’ve decided to turn off the comments option. I think everything that needs to be said here at TTL has been said and there are lots of other places where I am sure this debate/discussion/conversation will continue for many days.
Blessings to all,
Sallie