One of the most popular homeschooling programs currently available is Classical Conversations (CC). When CC came to our area a few years ago, I explored it as an option even though we are relaxed homeschoolers. I taught for a year in a Classical Christian school and therefore was very familiar with classical education. CC offers a number of features that interested me including the advertised community aspect. In fact, I checked it out two years in a row because I really wanted to like it and I wanted it to be a good fit for our family. In the end, we opted not to participate in CC.
There are several reasons why we chose not to join Classical Conversations. I am sharing what I see as some of the Classical Conversations negatives. This review is for parents who are exploring CC, but may be doubting their own research or perspective. I’m listing my reasons in roughly the order of importance for our particular family, starting with the most important.
It is my hope this overview of our thoughts will be helpful for other parents as they seek to make decisions for their particular child and family. Many people enthusiastically participate and current members can be very persuasive when inviting people to join. However, every family is different and not every opportunity is a good fit, no matter how much someone else may like it and recommend it.
Rigidity Of Classical Conversations Program
The rigidity of the program was one of the first red flags that Classical Conversations would not work with our child. I think CC can probably be a very positive experience for kids if they have a learning style that fits well with the program. For others, it will be disastrous.
For example, it became clear to me that if your child needs legitimate accommodations due to real learning differences or challenges, it isn’t going to be a good fit. Classical Conversations is a tightly controlled program with a clear hierarchy. They have very definite ways of doing things handed down from the corporate entity. While some families might find this rigidity a source of accountability, other families will find the rigidity stifling. We are in the latter group.
If I’m going to be perfectly honest, I would have had fewer qualms about this before I became the parent of a gifted/2e child. When you are parenting a child who doesn’t fit the normal parameters, you look at everything very differently. The tight structure I would have seen as a positive before I became a mother became a huge negative. A tight schedule with very definite parameters and very little room for rabbit trails would frustrate my child. There is a reason we became relaxed homeschoolers bordering at times on unschoolers. Classical Conversations would not fit my child at all however much I might like about the classical approach.
Performing and Perfection
There is definitely a strong performance component to Classical Conversations. One of the things people say they love about it is how amazing it is to hear the kids recite or perform all of the facts they have learned. Again, before becoming a mother I would have loved that aspect of it. I now have a child who does not like to perform in any way, shape, or form. She backed out of being a flower girl because she didn’t want people looking at her. She is not a performer. She’s not interested in singing or chanting what she is learning. She’s also not interested in recalling facts or information under pressure.
So for example, there is the Memory Masters program which rewards students who master everything and demonstrate it through multiple “proofings.” When I met with someone from CC a few years ago, she made it very clear that perfection was the standard. A memorization competition that demands perfection? I would have totally rocked that when I was a kid. I was brilliant at everything memorization – school, AWANA, VBS, etc. However, it would be a terrible fit for my daughter. Many gifted/2e kids already struggle with perfectionism. The last thing I need to do is add more fuel to the fire by putting her into a situation where the line between excellence and perfection is razor-thin to non-existent.
(I looked up Memory Masters Guide to make sure I was remembering this correctly and it appears there is some wiggle room now. They apparently do allow for a teeny teeny tiny bit of room for Mastery versus Perfection.)
However, as I said before, there is no accommodation for kids who have learning differences. From the Guide:
Can directors change the requirements for Memory Masters for students with special needs, especially those who have dyslexia, dysgraphia, or are on the autism spectrum?
Classical Conversations is honored that families who have children with different kinds of special needs like dyslexia, dysgraphia, or autism participate in the Foundations program. Students with many different abilities and capabilities enjoy, benefit from, and are valuable members of our local CC communities. We celebrate each achievement. The Memory Master title is set aside for those who are able to meet the required objectives. The director should be aware of physical limitations and may extend time and offer a break during proofing. The Memory Master requirements should remain the same for all subjects. Memory Master is not for every child, and that is really OK! If your child cannot meet the requirements for mastery, we recommend that you create your own special “Memory Master” rules and reward system for your home school.
While I believe that CC has every right to set the standards they wish, I would not feel comfortable taking my child into a situation where she would always feel “less” for not being able to do what is put out there as something to achieve, even if it is not required.
Classical Conversations Cost
Classical Conversations is not cheap. We live in a fairly affluent area, but we are not well-to-do ourselves relative to a significant portion of the population around us. I felt a distinct subtle shaming when I expressed my concern about the total cost (which I don’t think I knew about before I attended a one-on-one informational meeting). The reason I remember the feeling of shame so vividly is because it completely blindsided me. I wasn’t expecting it.
For families where money isn’t a concern, the cost of CC might not be a big deal. But I felt the cost outweighed any potential benefits Caroline might have derived from it. It was explained to me that I could become a tutor to pay for it, but I did not want to take that on for a number of reasons (including the last reason we didn’t do CC).
Parents Must Stay For Classical Conversations Sessions
Although this is last on my list here, it was perhaps most important to me individually. To Caroline? No. But for me as the mom, this was a big negative.
Classical Conversations requires that parents stay for the entire time. At that time, we were participating in a Christian drop-off co-op which we really liked (and still do to this day). I’m not going to lie. We love being able to drop Caroline off for a few hours and get some time to ourselves. It’s the only time we get a parenting break ever.
I found the idea that parents had to stay off-putting. But I especially found the reason they gave made no sense. The reason provided is that the parents need to see the tutor demonstrating how to use the materials and how to present the information. Well, I could maybe accept that if we were talking about master teachers who were highly trained. But many of the tutors are parents who are tutoring to offset the cost of their own child attending. I have a teaching degree and have been a classroom teacher. Yet I would be expected to stay to watch another parent (who may or may not be a teacher) show me how to work with my child. I could get that from a one hour video rather than being forced to sit there for hours week after week.
So the parents have to stay so they can learn from the tutors, but anyone can become a tutor if they attend a couple of days of training. The material to be presented is so challenging that parents have to be there to learn how to do it at home, but anyone can learn to be a tutor in a few short training sessions. This made no sense to me then and it still doesn’t.
In the end, I didn’t want to sit in the back of the room for hours when I had other things I could be doing with my valuable time.
Classical Conversations Negatives
So those are a few of the negatives I found when I researched Classical Conversations as an option for our family. I know there are many families who love CC and are passionate evangelists for it. But I think it’s also helpful to read reviews from people who have seriously researched it, considered it, and realized that it isn’t a good fit for every family and every child. Understanding your child is the most important part of homeschooling, far more important than any popular movement or view within the homeschooling community. If you are someone looking for “permission” to not do CC even though it is popular where you live or for someone else to say, “This wouldn’t work for our family either,” I hope you found this post helpful and encouraging. In the end, we are happy with our decision to be relaxed homeschoolers.
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Wendy Tiedt
I have been a public school teacher, and we just embarked on this CC journey this school year. We moved out of state to Mississippi and the schools are way below my expectations and I would never send my child into on a daily basis. So we had to problem solve and we found CC. Our community was not pushy, super welcoming. My son is in 6th grade and he has been in gifted acetates and enriched programs in IL his whole life. Amazing public school system!! It’s not as rigid as I thought before we joined. It’s flexible and they give you a guideline to follow, but depending on the ability and the needs of your child, it can be tapered…absolutely. I would not regret this program because of the reasons you stated. If it’s not a good fit, you really do not know until you try it- if it at all intrigues you. I said to my husband, what if it’s not the right thing for us?? Then we do not go anymore. We find something else. So…we are into week three now, and we have settled in and are all loving it. Just FYI.
Sallie
Charlie Vigilante – I’ve removed both of the comments you left overnight. They were both inflammatory and I’m not allowing that here. I’ve published your previous comments after I edited out the inflammatory language. If you would like to leave helpful comments then please do. Anything unnecessarily aggressive toward CC and its members will be deleted. Thank you.
Memmy
Hi! Thank you for this! The amusing thing to me is that CC omits a huge part of the Classical Model of education and focuses solely on the trivium – a small part of the model. Classical education is SO MUCH MORE than the trivium. Charlotte Mason would have a fit over the pace of reading books at the Challenge level. There’s no REST. You perform and stay in line. You are right.
For 3 years we’ve been part of 2 different CC Communities, in Foundations and Challenge. CC works for many parents who need guidance, who want to be told what to do and don’t want a lot of freedom in their home school. I get that and am not knocking it. For me personally, however, CC is glorified public school done at home and goes totally against the reason we home school in the first place. But again, it works for many. With public schools getting worse each year, and more and more people turning to Home schooling, I totally understand why someone would find CC attractive. Parents need help and are attracted to the Community aspect as well. Many thrive. Many others have horrible experiences.
We’ve had warm, caring tutors and awful, indifferent tutors who thought they were the teacher – they made up requirements outside of the Challenge Guide. The guide says that YOU are the teacher and make the final decision on flexibility, yet Directors behave like teachers and if you get behind or stay focused on a topic longer than CC does, you will not be supported in catching up or because you cultivated a love of learning – you will be treated indifferently and get the silent treatment for “going rogue”. It’s NUTS!!
My children have been bullied and treated awfully indifferent by the children when they’re supposed to work in groups together – it’s been mind boggling how my child went in new, and was blatantly ignored by the others on his debate team and was excluded from communications and the work they did. Unfriendly, unkind, unhelpful, exclusive. Yuck. Any interaction whatsoever was because my child initiated it. You wouldn’t even know the children knew my child if observing from the outside, much less worked on a team together.
I’ve actually never been treated worse in my life than by the women at CC. Gossip occurs even if it’s “discouraged” by wonderful, God loving shepherd like leaders. The cliques are tremendous. You will find a handful of children and adults in the communities who aren’t cult like, or behave as I’ve described here. These treasures do their thing, don’t gossip, respect your decision to do what’s right for you and were the bright spots, but I’ve found they’re the minority. It blows my mind because the CC motto is to know Christ and to make Him known.
In CC it is hard for the children to find their place if you don’t start in lower elementary grades. The kids have their buddies and many of them are not willing to let outsiders in. I didn’t see where any parent ever encouraged their children to engage new children.
I was thankful to read this today as I’m actually ending CC for us permanently this week. Pulling my children out. There are not enough articles out there sharing the cons of CC. I know. I’ve done plenty of research. It’s weird… people are afraid to share the negative sides of CC. Thank you for writing this.
Lisa
I have also looked at CC and decided against it, both for my special needs child (ASD) and my neuro-typical children.
I find memorization to be the lowest form of learning (so do those who study the brain and pedagogy). It’s helpful to memorize some things but it’s a last resort in our homeschool. If I wanted my kids to regurgitate information, I’d send them to public school.
I have friends who love CC and I have friends who have left CC. Those who have left were disgusted by the business model and using Bible passages to influence tutors to generate more income for CC. They were not impressed with what went on behind the scenes.
In my community, CC costs $1,000 per child and that doesn’t include curriculum. That’s a lot of money to pay to pay another parent to help my kids memorize things.
John
> While I believe that CC has every right to set the standards they wish, I would not feel comfortable taking my child into a situation where she would always feel “less” for not being able to do what is put out there as something to achieve, even if it is not required.
Most of the CCs I’ve seen have had 20% to 40% of the kids doing the optional Memory Master work where they recite everything they have learned for the year. My kids have done Memory Master on some years and not on others and there wasn’t any feeling of being “less” for doing what the majority of the kids were doing.
Some of the CCs I’ve seen have set up other optional challenges in addition to Memory Master. Some have special recognition for kids that can recite all three cycles. Others have recognition for kids who can do just the timeline. I know families have sometimes set their own goals for smaller achievements that are more appropriate for their particular kids.
As a parent, you personally don’t want your kid in a program where there was something optional that would be really hard for them to do, but the criticism of them feeling “less” because of it doesn’t match up with any of the CCs I’ve observed or participated in.
> I now have a child who does not like to perform in any way, shape, or form.
Many homeschoolers are looking for ways for their kids to get the chance to present to their peers. CC has the kids do a weekly presentation in addition to the memory work. At younger ages it is mostly show and tell, but they usually pick something to work on each week even if it is as simple as making sure they have an introduction and conclusion. I’ve seen lots of kids who start out not liking standing in front of their peers at all, but after a few weeks start doing very well with it. Many parents see this as an important part of educating their kids–giving them the experiences they need to be able to present themselves in front of others even if it isn’t something they naturally want to do. With the parent and tutor both present, most families find it isn’t particularly difficult to strike a balance that isn’t pushing the kid too hard but still moving them toward developing skills in presenting themselves to their peers.
> We love being able to drop Caroline off for a few hours and get some time to ourselves. It’s the only time we get a parenting break ever. I found the idea that parents had to stay off-putting.
The CCs I’ve been part of presented this as part of the idea that CC is simply a tool for homeschooling families. CC classrooms are not staffed for daycare and, while the environment gives children a chance to work with an adult who isn’t their parent and participate with peers, it still is for homeschoolers and having the parents there helps keep that in place. It also helps make sure that there is consistency between what the tutor is saying and what the parents are saying and make sure the parents have a chance to clarify if the tutor says something that doesn’t sound correct. There are lots of other programs that are trying to meet the need you expressed though.
> She’s also not interested in recalling facts or information under pressure.
Many kids feel the same way. CC gives kids a chance to practice recalling information. The amount of pressure is pretty much up to the parent though. I know some kids that just work on singing the memory work at home. In the classroom they play a game to try to remember what they worked on for the week, but some kids know it and some don’t. It is really up to the parents how much they want to focus on the memory work because the parents know what the kids are capable of.
LMS
You haven’t ever had a gifte, perfectionist child, have you? With one it is NOT up to the parent what or how much of something that child focuses on. The mere existence and implications of the memory work would be enough to cause upset to that child no matter what the parent said. I continue to be amazed that those involved with CC can’t sinply accept that it isn’t for everyone.
Sallie
Hi John,
I would like to support what LMS said and reiterate what I said in my post. Prior to becoming a mother to the child I have, I would have thought so much about CC was great. And then I became the mother of a child who is 2e which means she is both gifted and has learning differences. CC would not work for her. Period. And no amount of wishing and hoping and altering it is going to make it a good fit. There are specific reasons I could get into, but I don’t get into them to protect my daughter’s privacy online.
I agree with LMS that it’s unfortunate that some people simply will not accept that CC is not a good fit for all children. It isn’t. Period. That’s why I wrote this post. And the more people try to make the case that CC is great for all kids, the more thankful I am that I wrote it and people can find it so they know they aren’t alone and aren’t crazy for thinking that CC won’t be a good fit for their child.
Sallie
Vesper
I’m very thankful to find others who are embrace there are many different ways to teach and programs or curriculum to use that all work great for homeschooling!! We had a negative experience were cast out for not believing this is the only way & best way for homeschooling.
Thank you for posting this to share with others.
Sallie
Hi Vesper!
I’m so glad you found this encouraging. That was my purpose in writing it – to let people know they aren’t alone in their thinking or experience. Best wishes with your homeschool endeavors!
Stephanie
Thanks for this post. There is so little information about the negatives or drawbacks to CC; mostly due to the fact that they keep such a tight control over what is written and said about them. I would add the following: I have had a child in the CC programs for over 3 years. In that time, I found their program curriculum to be well organized and thought out. However, it is lacking in the older grades, and their lack of concern for the children in the program is alarming. They have no written code of conduct policies in place, and students who incur problems that require disciplinary action are often ignored. There is no way of going up the chain in the CC ladder as all the groups are owned by the directors who run them. This is not widely publicized by CC, as they try to hide this fact and let parents assume that the groups are overseen by CC and that CC will help regulate the groups. Their highschool curriculum is not rigorous enough for a classical education. The science curriculum alone is a year behind the average pace of students, as one example. I feel like in the end this program is more concerned about making money for themselves through selling curriculum and garnering more “groups” than they are the students and their learning or safety.
Christopher
Thank you for what I thought was an honest review of CC. My son is on the autism spectrum and there are a lot of considerations for his homeschooling. Our other three children did not have this issue. He does think and learn differently but has surprising depth for his age and the rigidity of the program would probably not work well for him.
Sallie
Hi Christopher!
I apologize it took me a few days to respond to your comment. I’m glad you found the review helpful. Your son is blessed to have a father who is looking out for his individual needs!
C. Williams
The classical model follows the trivium: memorization, also known as poll-parrot, dialectical, also known as pert and rhetoric, poetic. (The Lost Tools of Learning by Dorothy Sayers). The memorization is the first stage. While it may seem redundant it really will pay off when you get to the next stage in essentials. I’m seeing some of the fruits of our labor now that I have one in Challenge. All the memorization and dialectical work in Essentials is paying off in the rhetoric stage. Ultimately, my child will be able to choose one side of an issue and with strong support defend his stance all while speaking with clarity and conviction. While I don’t believe CC is for everyone, I do believe it’s what you make it. I have two very different learners. For one, we follow the program pretty much as it is laid out. For my other, I use the information as a guide but I modify it greatly to meet his needs. I strongly feel no matter which program or curriculum you choose, you must decide to work the curriculum and not let it work you. You are the teacher and no one knows your kiddos more than you do. So relax and enjoy those babies no matter which program or curriculum you choose. One last thought, I’ve been to a few different campuses to observe and I’ve been enrolled in two, and I can tell you, having wonderful directors and tutors can really make it worthwhile. Anything less than wonderful sadly, doesn’t do the program justice. Good luck to all!
Sallie
“I strongly feel no matter which program or curriculum you choose, you must decide to work the curriculum and not let it work you. You are the teacher and no one knows your kiddos more than you do. ”
This is the key to success in homeschooling no matter which method, books, or approach you decide on. Well said!
Mary Cunningham
I am so relieved for the CC communities near you that you did not join. You are one sour grape lady. You get out what you put into it.
Sallie
I think it would be more helpful if you dealt with the substance of my post and the content of almost 90 comments rather than resorting to a personal attack on me. Your response reflects the very tone people have expressed dismay over regarding how they were treated in their CC community.
Attacking me rather than the substance of my comments is also contrary to how someone who embraces a classical method of learning should respond to an argument with which they have a disagreement. In responding to my post and this helpful discussion with a personal attack, you are being a poor advertisement for CC.
M
hahahahaha-I am so glad you finally mentioned the ad hominem attack! Sure sign that someone isn’t being intellectually honest.
Memmy
Immature and unwise and definitely not making God known per CC motto. Behaving sour while calling another sour because their opinion and experience is different. Exactly the nasty behavior many of us pointed out about CC folks. PS. I put in much to CC and certainly didn’t get out what I put in. One size doesn’t fit all.
Darlene
WOW!!! You have truly epitomized the reason why many (and a growing number) who are leaving CC communities. To label a woman you don’t know sour when all she did was share her own experiences and ideas as to why it doesn’t work. CC is supposed to be Christian remember.
Sallie,
Don’t allow the fanatics to shut you up. They have done this to the Quine’s when all he did was ask questions. After serving/tutoring on a campus for 3 yrs, and having all 7 of my children in every program except for Challenge I, you have made some seriously astute observations. My own observations during this time have lead me to believe this program is for those homeschoolers who need to prove to many outsiders that homeschooling is great cuz the kids are doing great. It is more of an affirmation or in some cases identity for the parent than it truly is to the child. I know first hand the marring of relationship in homes between husband and wife, between children and parents, and even siblings. This program has many good subjects but it isn’t really geared to learning but more of exposure. It also isn’t truly Classical. It is classical-ish. Although the program touts the parents are the teachers, it is lip service. They will encourage (forcefully or gently) to do the program. They say they accommodate, but they don’t. CS Lewis is right in how comparison creates an atmosphere of pride and this is true in CC campuses. Not all, but I would venture to say many. In the 5 communities close to me, I would say only 1 truly espouses that Christian community we all think of when we signed up for.
Sorry for the personal, unkind remarks. It is unnecessary and not what the God of the Bible considers “brotherly love”.
Sallie
Hi Darlene,
Thank you for your comment. I’m sorry it took so long to post. I had two comments go to the comment spam folder and I just found them today.
Thank you, too, for sharing your experiences and perspective. 🙂
Sallie
Sallie
Darlene,
Curiosity got the better of me so I had to Google “Quine Classical Conversation” to see what was up. Wow. That led me down a whole lot of rabbit holes and trails of which I was completely unaware. LOL!
Sallie
Hannah
Just so you are aware, not doing Memory Master is not a big deal. Most kids don’t even do it at all. I was in a community for two years and not one child even tried for it. It is not a main part of the curriculum.
The reason the parents have to stay is for liability reasons. That is why Challenge is a drop off program and the younger years are not. I don’t like that aspect either but I do understand the reasoning behind it.
Nikki
After (literally) years of contemplating CC, we finally decided to give it a try in the middle of this year-and we love it. With that said, I decided against 3 other campuses in my area before deciding to join the one we are in now.
To answer your question on why you have to stay in class…it’s not so much that the tutor can teach you- it’s so you can see how the tutor teaches you children (hand motions, songs vs. speaking, etc). That way the child can practice the same way home to how he will review it in class. Our tutors also send out an email, after each class, describing how they teach each subject. I also appreciate the fact that our tutors try to teach to/for every learning style.
With all of that said, the beauty of homeschooling is being able to pick and choose what works for our family! 🙂
Brooke
I’m glad it’s working for you. And you were wise to check out different campuses. CC tries to control most aspects of CC, but the thing they don’t notice is controlling/cultlike behavior. CC can be very ugly in application. But wee had many lovely years in ours until the leadership created some extremely odd situations that were completely backed up by the leadership above. It was ugly and awkward and really really sad. CC has many strengths and many weaknesses. They’ll refuse to recognize the weaknesses, unfortunately. The thing is, everyone in CC knows there are weaknesses, but they enjoy the benefits, so they lump it and accept the bad with the good — just like anything anyone would sign up for. But CC has no idea that this is what’s happening. They have a tremendously large head that they place deep in sand to avoid knowing their own weaknesses. You sound very wise about enjoying what you are enjoying with eyes open to whether or not it continues to work for you.
They do claim that the parents need to stay for purposes of training. But that doesn’t pan out when you look at tutor training hours compared to the number of hours parents spend in “training” in the classroom. And their rule about staying in one classroom all morning means that your belief that parents are supposed to be there to see how the memory work is done isn’t accurate either. If you have more than one child, you weren’t at all exposed that morning to how THAT child learned the memory work. So the belief that it’s for the parents to know what’s going on only goes so far. I’m not saying parents should NOT stay or that it isn’t beneficial in some ways. But I believe they are absolutely not forthcoming about their true reasons.
They set up their business model to completely benefit them (parents staying, directors and tutors shouldering the tax burden, expensive tuition for most people and yet providing so very little, …) and then claim it’s for other purposes. It’s fine if they set up their business model to benefit them as a company. But then they use rhetoric to lead people to believe it’s NOT to benefit CC. They want you to believe it’s the “right and true way” and it’s the model everyone should be using and that it’s all to be the best for you. And if you just don’t see it, it’s not because you are using your brain. No, they say it’s because you don’t understand the classical method (which they institute poorly, by the way) and you just need to trust the method. Again, they will not be forthcoming about real reasons, but will put forth untrue ones.
I’m not sure that Leigh Bortins or other top leadership designed this specifically to turn into what it has. I’m not certain she knows how cultlike things can get in certain areas. Our area is awful in so many ways. Completely controlling directors, people lying to cover themselves, and way worse than that, …. It’s really really bad and the leadership above completely act as if they delve deeply into everything but ended up completely messing it up.
The model of CC actually attracts Type AAA people who feel the love of controlling everyone around them … people who don’t think in terms of grays … and everything is black or white / right or wrong and they create weird, awkward situations. Like I said … we had some wonderful years, but then it turned WEIRD. Watch for cultlike behavior.
And heads up, this hanging out during classtime in order to see how the tutor does it, this might interest you: your tutor is NOT trained in the material, merely the program. The truth is, the tutors are only “trained” 9 hours per year (and by “trained” … they are NOT trained in classroom management, the training is not great at all … it pretty much is merely about how the program works and I’ve been through 11 of the trainings). If parents are learning from these “trained” tutors and being trained in the mornings at CC … they are being trained 24 days a year x 3 hours per day … by someone who hasn’t even learned all that much, I hate to say. Did you know your Essentials tutors are NEVER taught grammar or writing – they are responsible to figure it out and train themselves? And CC strongly encourages parents who know next to nothing about grammar/writing to step up and tutor? [you might be okay with paying someone who knows nothing to learn and pass it on to you but is that actually worth your money?] Tutors can ask questions on a forum, but there is actually no grammar or writing training within the trainings. This means that your experience in Essentials class depends ENTIRELY on whether you do or do not have a tutor who can assimilate information quickly and can already manage a classroom of squirrelly 4th-6th graders and their parents (attached to their phones). One time, a person in charge of the Essentials program actually told me it was designed to be difficult on purpose so that the tutor would rely on Jesus. For one thing, that has to be an outright lie. It’s their constant, “Oh, we didn’t make a mistake. Rather, this was designed from the beginning to _______________ (insert afterthought reasoning to make weakness look like strength).”
The thing is … it’s not about the weaknesses of the CC program. This is what I can’t stress enough. Everything you choose to do in life will have strengths and weaknesses. It’s fine to have them. It’s that they refuse to recognize weaknesses, attack and get rid of those who see the weaknesses, and continue to claim that CC is truly for everyone. And that’s what this blog author was pointing out – that CC doesn’t actually work well for everyone.
April
Note from Sallie – I went back and forth on whether or not to approve this comment. I approved it and then unapproved it. I’m going to approve it. I’m not on Facebook any longer so I have no way of knowing anything about this group. I do believe in the freedom of association and free speech so I’m sharing this comment with the link to the Facebook page included.
Sorry for the delay, April, as I made up my mind. I hope you understand.
————————————————-
In addition to the excellent points you have made here, there are also many who have concerns about the lack of transparency in the company itself.
For example, Challenge (grades 6 through 12) families may not even look at the Challenge guide before paying for the program. And this just scratches the surface.
There are also many sad stories of why people left CC communities or we’re shoved out.
I help admin a Facebook group where people tell these stories. It can be found here:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/2135913039963411/
April
Sallie,
I completely understand! I didn’t know if a link would even be approved. And it’s your blog, your rules. I just appreciate the openness of your post and your attitude toward the comments here.
The thing is, the group I linked discusses a lot of things. It even gives a different perspective on some of the things stated in another comment approved today – Shari’s post above.
Examples:
She says CC is “essentially a franchise”. CC does not follow the Federal Trade Commission’s franchise rules, so if it’s a franchise it’s not following federal guidelines.
She said CC is “cheaper than private school”. This is an often repeated popular saying by CC members, but it’s comparing apples and oranges. CC’s Foundations program is 3 hours a day, 1 day a week. Extrapolated to the number of hours private Christian schools operate, CC would cost $7,000 a year at the elementary level (And that’s a low estimate because it doesn’t take into account building fees or the fact that CC is not drop-off like a private school would be.) It’s just not comparable. I’ll share my math if anyone is interested.
We discuss things like this as well as allowing women to tell their stories. So, I very much appreciate you allowing my comment!
Sallie
Hi April,
Thank you for the thoughtful follow up comment. You raise some good points. 🙂
Sallie
Julie Anne
Wow, Sallie, it’s been a long time since we’ve connected. I am currently researching Classical Conversations after having been contacted by people who were involved in the organization. I’ve known you online for over 5 years and have always found you to be respectful and balanced. I wish I could say that the responses from current CC folks surprised me, but sadly, they didn’t considering I already had a glimpse of the behavior told to me by the former members. The comments here are only confirming my suspicions, sadly.
You handled the rude comments well and with grace. Who knows how many parents were validated by your post and made the decision to look elsewhere? As always, thank you for writing and sharing your experience, and letting love be your guide.
Sallie
Hi Julie Anne!
Good to “see” you again, too! I’ll be interested to read what you write. I’ve had additional thoughts about the entire CC thing since this post and the comment section blew up, but I don’t have the inclination to get further into it with CC and the members.
I don’t understand the unwillingness of homeschooling parents to simply support each other and their choices. Some other homeschool bloggers were joking with me about this post and mentioned the obvious and palpable tension at a homeschool convention between the Charlotte Mason “purists” and the “non-purists.” I don’t think I’m going to touch that one. LOL!
Sallie
Sallie
If anyone reading this wants to see the series Julie Anne has started, here are the first two posts. She’s also more savvy in terms of dealing with avoiding lawsuits given her background so she is more open to people sharing their stories.
Classical Conversations #1: The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly
Classical Conversations #2: What Led You to Join a Classical Conversations Homeschool Community?
Julie Anne
Thank you, Sallie, for posting the links. I think it’s important that people who are familiar with this program are not afraid to share their experiences. It’s not defamatory to share a personal story. It’s the truth. Truth is a legal defense for defamation lawsuits.
Sallie
I told David this morning that this is like watching Vision Forum 2.0 – people raising legitimate concerns only to be shouted down by the true believers who cannot see the truth. There were families who were legitimately helped by VF. I have no doubt about that. I’m confident there are families who have been helped by CC and have had wonderful experiences. But the “goodness” that people experience sometimes blinds them to the reality of the bigger picture.
If the allegations being raised against CC re: legal and financial issues are true, this will be the big separator between VF and CC. VF “only” devastated people personally, relationally, and spiritually. CC would throw in financially. Once people start talking about the IRS, that puts things on a totally different level. I sincerely hope for the sake of the trusting CC members that this is not the case. But it feels like watching the same train wreck all over again.
Rochelle Murdock
Thank you for your impressions about the CC Community that you visited. As a Director of a fairly new Foundations and Essentials community in my city, I find your opinions helpful. I strive to follow the Lord’s leading in all of the decisions I make for our community. That is so very important to me. I want our community to be a source of encouragement, learning for everyone (Mamas included), and support. I’m sorry to hear that you didn’t feel that the CC curriculum could be adapted to your daughter’s differences. My daughter has some learning differences too (not gifted), and we do have a few other kiddos in our community with learning differences as well. We have students who memorize like wild-fire, and those for whom memorization is not such an easy skill. In the two years that our community has met, I have let folks know about Memory Master, but no one has been interested in pursuing that level of content mastery. So, I think that each CC community has a different ‘personality’. I’ve seen ones where Memory Master is held up as the holy grail for everyone, and I wasn’t so very thrilled with the prideful elements or undue pressure that came along with it. We like having a basic, core curriculum to follow. I supplement that for my own kids as works best for them. We enjoy the people in our community. I do gain great benefit as teacher and lead learner from other home schooling Mamas. I’m not a professional educator, nor is anyone in our community. But we’ve all linked arms together and embraced the journey together. You’re right, it’s not for everyone, and I hope that your home schooling pursuits have resulted in great benefit for you and your family, as CC has for us.
Lisa Anne
I belonged to a CC community for two years. Although the kids had fun with the memorization, it had no depth at all. It eventually became TOO repetitive. The kids ended up hating it, after awhile. My husband was home one day, and he couldn’t believe how much the curriculum lacked! You pay a lot of money just to recite dates and people.
I found Essentials severely lacking in depth and content. I have an English-based degree, and I knew it was not enough for my child. I found that a lot of parents like CC because it is easy (excluding Challenge) and they can teach a little bit and be done. They want the accountability of competition, and not much else. A true classical education takes a lot of work on the parent’s part; not necessarily a lot of money.
At lunchtime, I felt like I was in the movie, ‘Mean Girls’. It was very cliquey and I would listen as these mothers competed with one another. My ears would be ringing with the games these mothers would play. They would be so busy competing in their own CC games, that they didn’t pay attention to what their kids were doing. It was a crazy free-for-all!
Now, let me just say that I still know families in CC. When they test their children, they do horribly. Now, I know that not all children test well, and that’s ok! But, when you hear this as being very consistent with all families, it raises a huge red flag.
Public school is not great for children, because it squashes the child’s natural tendency to ask questions and learn. CC does the same thing. Most kids that I would talk to HATED CC, but the moms loved it. My experience is that it was mainly for the moms. Thank you for this article!
Betsy
WOW. Lots of words!
All you need to worry about is
Reading,
Writing , &
Arithmetic! Through the elementary years!
Don’t sweat the small things! Enjoy your kids! Love your kids! Spend time with your kids! Go to the park! Build a teee house together!
Don’t make elementary SO miserable!
I have used…….
My Fathers World
Rod &Staff
Abeka
Bob Jones
Math U See
Saxon Math
Apologia Science
Teaching Textbooks
Daily Grams
Singapore Math
And you know what………
We spent a year Reading the Bible….no other books except math…
We read the Bibile out loud, used a Bible dictionary, and a Concordance
And guess what, we learned more that year at home than ever before.
My boys were in 2nd grade and 5th grade that year!
We built a house for 6 years during their elementary years… I thought I was going to deprive them of a good education.
But guess what……
They will Learn anyway….everyday life is learning!
Fast forward from 2006 to 2017….
We have done nothing as far as co-ops and I signed my one 14 year old to
Challenge B and my twin boys for Challenge 111.
Guess what…..they rose to the occasion!
They wrote speeches….never have before!
They memorized Shakespeare……never have before!
They debated a partner in American History….never have before!
What I’m saying is…..Homeschool your kids at Home through the growing up years and HAVE FUN!
Go to Classical Conversations if you want. My boys had a great time!
Or stay home pining away about how CC isn’t right for you!
Either way…..ENJOY your kids because it is over in a flash and then they graduate!
Brooke
I’m not sure you understood the blog or the comments, Betsy. This was about CC claiming strongly to be right for everyone when really nothing is. And it was about the unhealthy experiences people have had in dealing with many of the people from CC. It wasn’t about the fact that it does work for some children.
I can guarantee you that we are NOT pining that CC isn’t right for us. I spent seven years there and both me and my children are thrilled to be gone. No pining. But when a substitute tutor slaps your child and gets away with it, when a director mistreats your child because she doesn’t like him, when lies are told, when asses are covered, when taxes are filled out incorrectly, when a company claims to be for good and yet will twist and wiggle to make it good only for them … people do have something to say about that.
Jenn S
Thank you for sharing your experience and perspective. We are researching and considering homeschooling options for the first time and these are some of the thoughts that have been going through my mind. It’s encouraging to know others have had similar concerns. Thank you!
Sallie
Hi Jenn,
I’m so glad you found this post and the discussion in the comments helpful. That was my goal in writing it! Best wishes with whichever path you take for your family!
Sallie
Kayleigh Loucks
I appreciate your insight, and I delayed joining CC for many of the reasons that you mentioned.
1- That cost! Wow! It was a bit of a hit to learn the cost, however they do believe that CC is a nearly complete program. So you would need to supplement English and Math in the early years. That helps off set it. When I did join, I decided to become a tutor. My son really wanted to have a “school” experience and this was the best co op I’m our area to provide it. The fact that I’m essentially putting him in the program for free by donating some of my time to tutor is totally worth it for any family who is unable to pay that cost.
2- The songs just didn’t match our learning style. I’m going to be really honest, I could NOT see myself singing those songs. What’s really funny though, is as a kid, I often made up songs for myself to help memorize. My son has learning disabilities, does not care for singing, and he doesn’t not sing the songs, yet he is an auditory learning and somehow the information is sticking. For some in our CC community, the memory work really works for them and they encourage reviewing it daily. It takes about 30 minutes. We don’t review daily, but I do have the cd’s in the car and we listen to the work each week. It’s not our learning style, and it’s not my favorite at ALL, but my kids enjoy it sometimes, and it’s just another tool in their tool belt.
Lastly, it sounds like your Cc community was maybe new? If they really were the way you explained, then I can see your hesitation to join, but I just want to say that our CC, our directors, our community is not how you explained. My first one on one with our director immediately after telling me the price told me that if CC was what God led my family to do, and cost was an issue, to let her know because she would make it work for us. She didn’t suggest tutoring as a way to pay, that was something I chose because I preferred it to listening to the tutor. I always was able to be my son’s teacher which was fun! Our community ALWAYS gives credit to God. In fact, they have become such amazing people in my life that even when I’m not in sync with CC their support of me as a mom and a child of God makes it worth it. Of course, they would continue to love and support me without CC, but it’s really became our family. We don’t do a lot of CC at home. I have picked and chosen certain parts I like. We mostly follow Charlotte Mason and even unschooling at home, but the CC curriculum is there if I ever need a break from planning and wanted to take it easy and just do the memory work for awhile. I do know many families whose children have excelled with only the memory work.
So, for anyone reading this blog and and considering CC, please know that experiences are personal. I understand this was your take away, and it may not have been right for your family, and that’s ok! I’m hoping you found something that did work. However, this article is a little subjective and one sided, and I just wanted to give another side for those considering of someone who does not at all worship the CC program, but has still found comfort in the accountability, the community, and the additional resource it’s been to my family that I otherwise may have never applied to our homeschooling. I hope you give CC a chance before making your decision and see for yourself.
Sallie
Hi Kayleigh,
Thank you for taking the time to share your story. I have to admit I let out a long sigh at this comment:
That’s the entire point. This is MY story. This is what I observed for my family and my child and the way we live our lives which I said over and over again. This was to offer an alternative point of view to the gushing positive reviews about CC. So, of course, it is going to be subjective and one-sided. It’s my story. It’s my opinion. I’m not trying to be fair and balanced here. I’m trying to offer a different perspective to the “must do CC at all costs” mantra that has been prevalent in recent years. There are new homeschoolers out there who are being made to feel that if they don’t sign their kids up for CC, they are damaging their kids and those kids will end up in minimum wage jobs for life with no chance of anything. Maybe it isn’t that way in your community, but the pressure is out there and maybe more than you realize.
And CC is NOT a good fit for my child who learns differently, is wired differently, and has specific professionally diagnosed learning challenges. I don’t know how I can be any clearer than that.
I don’t mean to attack you and I hope it doesn’t come across that way. I just find it amazing that people are still finding the need to defend CC over a year and one hundred plus comments later and can’t let one little blogger share her story without it being seen as a unfair threat.
Or maybe that does tell us all something about CC.
If I sound frustrated, it’s because I am. I’m to the point where I would like to change my post and tell people to just avoid CC altogether. Really.
Sallie
Anne
Hi Sallie —
I’m so impressed with your patience regarding all these posts. You are a better person than me.
I commented on the post, days after it was originally written, and I am appalled that people still feel the need to comment and tell you how you should have written something, on your own personal blog, differently. (I still get email updates when someone posts. I must have checked that box 18 months ago. Today, because I had a few extra minutes of time, I clicked through.)
As a six-year veteran of CC, I will say it again — CC is one way to homeschool. It is not THE only way to homeschool. There’s a world of beauty out there if minds are willing to be kept open.
Personally, I’d copy and paste your last comment reply into a nice big text box. Place it at the top of this post with an edit that says: Comments have now been disabled. 😉
Happy Homeschooling!
Anne
Sallie
Thanks, Anne, for your kind words. I’m keeping the comments open because it’s what I do on my site. But I’d be lying if I said the comments telling me I’m wrong for having my opinion aren’t making me sigh out loud at this point. LOL!
I enjoyed looking at your blog as well!
Sallie
Julia
Can I add to this list? This is my family’s first year in CC. We have belonged to two other non classical homeschool co ops over the 8 years we have homeschooled. CC is on par with both of those co ops in terms of the financial outlay per 24 week year, however, there are some areas that caught me off guard only after I’d paid the (nonrefundable) fees totaling $500. These pertain to the parents responsibilities for cleaning related tasks, the provision of baked goods, classroom management, and the use of the per student supply fee.
First, let me say that both of our prior co ops had volunteer boards/directors, and in both groups, instructors were paid. Parents then had the option of volunteering to take on various facility cleaning tasks in exchange for certain “perks”, such as a set pecentage off of registration fees, or priority registration for classes, leaving the paid instructors responsible for setting up their rooms each week, and putting them back in order if furniture/chairs had been moved. Parents were very motivated to volunteer because of these perks, and there was a waiting list to be on the “cleaning crews”. Those of us who were not interested paid full price and took the chance that the classes our kids wanted would be full. I’d rather not clean up after the day’s classes, and since others prefer the perks in exchange for performing their assigned cleaning tasks, this a system that works well. However, at my community group, parents are all expected to do various cleaning tasks, despite paying fees to fund the tutors and the director. Mind you, these tasks are not large or difficult, but I am wondering why the paid staff can’t handle these tasks. As I was out of town caring for my father following open heart surgery when our group divided up tasks on an online sign up sheet earlier this month, I’m was assigned the last available task, that being pulling trash at the end of a lunch hour that I had not planned to stay for (we live 45 minutes away, and have other activities in the afternoon). With this assignment, I’m not expected to stay for the additional hour after the Foundations program ends. Additionally, I knew in advance that our family would be missing 5 weeks of community session due to preplanned travel, and I informed the director prior to registering my son to be sure it wasn’t going to be a problem, and I was assured it would not be. When I reminded her of this issue, I was told that I must find other families to “cover” my assigned task in my absense. Again, isn’t this best done by the director?? As I am new to the group and do not know anyone, I am uncomfortable asking people to do my assigned role in my absence, and I really feel like this is something that the director ought to be handling. What if my child is ill and has an unplanned absence? The last thing I’d be thinking of is who to contact to handle my cleaning task, since I didn’t sign up to be on a cleaning crew when I turned in my paperwork, and all of the group’s policies were not presented until days before our year began– weeks after payments were due. To add insult to injury, when the director was going over this with everyone on the first day, she added that if someone didn’t do their assigned task, then she’d have to do it. She acted as if this was a tragic possibility, but frankly, I don’t see the problem with this, given that she’s being paid and/or perked to be the director, and I see this as falling within her role.
To add to the context here, I voluntarily run a homeschool group made up of over 100 families, so I am no stranger to working in a group setting, however, I also don’t expect my member families to do tasks that fall within my leadership role. We actually had our annual kick off party yesterday. I showed up early with the women who serve on my leadership team, we set up the room, ran our registration table, coordinated the events and vendors, and then pulled trash and cleaned up the room at the end of the event. Our members pay dues to belong to our group, and even though our leaders are not paid for our roles, we as the volunteer leaders recognized that the “dirty work” falls to us. Obviously, I’m not against sharing the workload, but it is different if I’m paying for a program AND being asked to do work for which I am not compensated, especially if this expectation is not communicated to me in advance of my check being cashed.
Though the task is not physically difficult or time consuming, and I have no problem cleaning up any messes made by myself or my child, I was not told of this requirement when I inquired about the program, so I’m feeling a bit hoodwinked and wondering why parents who pay to participate in a program are being given these tasks to complete, instead of the actual staff who is being compensated. It seems as if families pay for the privilege of participating in a program with both a paid staff and director, but then also have to perform work for which we are not compensated.
Additionally, we are each being asked to bake a treat for the church’s office staff each week. Again this was not disclosed until after registration paperwork was due/processed. This is especially interesting as our director very plainly told us that we are not to approach the office staff AT ALL under any circumstances EVER, and that she will serve as the intermediary for all communications. We are not even permitted to give the church’s phone number in case of emergencies to our spouse, or to go down the hallway where the office staff is housed. We are not to so much as deliver these treats down the hall to the office staff– only the director is to do so. As the church is being paid for the use of the space, i.e. via a per child, per program facility fee, and we are not permitted to engage with the staff in any capacity, the requirement of baking a treat seems a bit unusual. The church staff is paid, and is in their office daily regardless. The church itself is receiving revenue for the utilization of space that would otherwise go unused for a Christian program. I’m failing to see why a weekly bribe of food is also required for a staff that does not directly serve the group, and why at the bare minimum, the family providing the treats can’t deliver them directly.
As to the parent participation requirement, well, this seems to apply only to anyone who is not a tutor. My son’s class of 8 had only 2 parents present, aside from myself and the tutor. 6 of the children are boys, my own included. 3 of these boys lacked parental supervision during our session, and their behavior was outrageous to the point where the other children couldn’t hear the tutor 5 feet in front of them, and the tutor herself was unable to gather control of the group dynamic during the entire session. Two of the boys were so rude to the other children during presentations that I couldn’t believe my eyes, or my ears. All of our “paperwork” indicated that parents were to discipline their own children, but these children’s parents were not even in attendance, and won’t be for the duration of the year, while the teach their own classes in other rooms. If there is a parental participation requirement, why are these children not placed in their own parent’s class rooms? Perhaps other tutors maintain better control, but if this is going to be the entire year, it’s going to be completely useless even attempting to learn.
Finally, let me address the materials fee. It is $50/year per student, which is reasonable per the other co ops we participate in. For 8 students in a class, this is $400 per class. I specifically joined a CC community because of the fact that they do the art and science portions, and that they are to provide the equipment and materials for each week. Having homeschooled my oldest through high school, I recall the expense of materials for science labs and art materials, which, aside from being costly, require storage, and can be messy. Plus, science experiments and art are often more fun with friends. The group appealed to me on the grounds that the mess and materials of these two subjects in particular would be taken care of by the people being paid. While the materials fee is not exorbitant, I truly hope we see some more substantial purchases during the rest of the year. Our materials for week one included 2 pinto beans (used in a half hearted discussion that can not be considered an experiment even by a stretch of the term), and a 10 cent composition writing notebook (with lined paper) that the tutor told the kids would be used for their “art”. $400 in material fees for the class, and she gives the children composition notebooks rather than something simple but more appropriate like a dollar store sketch pad? Even construction paper would be favorable to trying to create art on writing paper.
I’m thoroughly unimpressed, and unless week 1 was a fluke, I doubt we’ll end up staying for the year, and I’ll chalk the money up as a “lesson learned”. I believe in the classical model of learning, but I truly feel like can do all of the material at home by myself, and recruit a few friends to come over for presentations and science/art.
CC Communities directors need to be transparent with their policies and FULL requirements BEFORE collecting registration forms and money. Things like policies and expectations need to be provided to families before the week of classes starting.
adelejane
As someone who WAS in CC for many years, I agree wholeheartedly with your article and wish I had been able to do more research. There seems to be two camps when it comes to CC, the cheerleaders who follow in nearly a cult-like manner (the marketed rhetoric is easily recognized in comments here), and those like me who peeked behind the veil and experienced the very ugly corporate side. Our local community was great; the problem is, the local community has no say. We left because we didn’t need another dictatorial body directing our homeschool with an inflexible, one-size-fits all program.
Terrie
Wow. Great look at the potential issues of this curriculum, and it’s very clear from the comments that many people here are unfamiliar with isssues of gifted education. Talk to 100 adults who were gifted children, and every one will have at least one story, if not several, of perfectionist pressure and fear of failure. It doesn’t matter if they went to public school, private school, or were home schooled.
It doesn’t matter if CC doesn’t really require perfectionism, or how MM isn’t really done by most kids. Any system that requires high levels of performance is going to trigger that perfectionist fear. Saying it doesn’t is like lecturing a parent whose child has food allergies that peanuts are perfectly safe and decent food and how dare they suggest they are not.
Sallie
“…it’s very clear from the comments that many people here are unfamiliar with issues of gifted education… Any system that requires high levels of performance is going to trigger that perfectionist fear. Saying it doesn’t is like lecturing a parent whose child has food allergies that peanuts are perfectly safe and decent food and how dare they suggest they are not.”
THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!