Here’s a topic that’s been on my mind for a long time. I’ll throw this out here and see where the conversation goes. I want to state that this conversation should be in the context of Christianity because that is a large part of what I’m trying to reconcile in my mind.
We’re all familiar with the phrase “what goes around comes around.” It seems to me that there are some people who take special delight in seeing people’s children give them grief. Kind of the “you were like that as a child and now you are getting your payback.”
This has bothered me because it seems like there is something inherently wrong in wishing ill on someone else. I don’t know how else to describe this attitude. I’ve been around people who think it is extremely funny or rewarding or satisfying or something to see other people struggle with making their children behave, watching their children get into scrapes, etc. Now I understand that children are sinful creatures and are going to be naughty. I’m not expecting sinlessness out of any child. But to see people find it very satisfying to see others struggle with their children just bothers me.
I guess what bothers me (as best as I can articulate it right now) is that it seems completely the opposite of what I think would be a biblical attitude. Doesn’t it seem like each generation should be praying for and working towards families that are increasingly godly and raising up a generation of children who take walking with Christ to the next level?
I find it hard to believe that somehow I will rejoice and laugh if Caroline has a daughter who doesn’t sleep through the night for several months and consider this as “payback” for all the nights she kept us up. I would hope for her a baby that would sleep through the night starting with the first night home from the hospital! It is hard for me to imagine rejoicing in the fact that her children are giving her trouble so I can somehow feel better about myself or somehow feel vindicated.
That’s the best I can do in articulating what I’m thinking about. Maybe as the conversation gets flowing I can add more. Has anyone else experienced this? Does it bother you? What are your thoughts?
This bothers me immensely. I am aware of the attitude that you are describing. I have also heard it called “the mother’s curse” (may you have a child JUST LIKe YOU!). Being the mother of 2 very complient, obedient, respectful daughters and 2 rebellious, full-of-snotty-attitude, try-everything-that-comes-along boy and girl, I am full in the midst of others tsk-tsking at me while I sense that in the background they are laughing about my situation. I am clinging to the hope that my husband and I have trained them in the way they should go, I’m just wondering when they will return to it. How much heartache will they go through and cause us to go through before that happens?
Even before my children were teens, I can remember feeling heartbroken when my older friends described the heartaches their children were putting them through. And some of those kids are now adults with families who bring their kids to church now. There is hope. I cannot imagine reveling in someone else’s misery. But there are those who do that. How sad, how petty……how very much they need the love of Jesus.
I must admit that just last week when my son was being specially difficult, I said, “Someday when you have kids of your own, you will understand me.” And what remained unsaid but I certainly felt was, “I hope they make you mad too.” But after I cooled down, that sentiment went out the window.
I understand my parents better now as a mom myself, and I have communicated that to them and thanked them for all their love and kindness especially when I was very difficult. My oldest is a pre-teen who can be very trying at times (otherwise he is a wonderful boy). I know many times he feels I am unduly hard on him and probably he gets really mad at me at those times. I would hope that he would understand later on how much I love him, but I am not wishing ill on him in the child department (Except, as mentioned earlier, when I’m really mad, but it quickly dissipates and I have not actually said to him that I hope his children will be difficult.). But I do know that should God give him kids they will not be perfect. So I take that as a challenge to myself to model tough love and unconditional love. Many times I fail but hopefully as I continue to grow in the Lord, I will also grow in that area.
When I was little, my mom used to say stuff like, “When you grow up and get married, I’m going to come over to your house and jump on YOUR couch.” Somehow, I never believed her (though I did worry about it a little bit!) 😀 And guess what? She has NOT come over to my house and jumped on my couch! (Whew!) 😉
I agree with you though! I don’t think “aha! Payback!” is a Christian attitude!
I have an almost three year old with some serious feeding issues that are in part, causing her failure to thrive diagnosis. It’s been a battle since birth. My dad called me the other day and said “Hey, I read this study that said picky eating was hereditary! Ha ha ha ha…” I interrupted him as he was laughing and asked first if he thought what he’d just said was at all helpful and then asked “if that study was true and that was what we were dealing with here (it’s not) where do you think the picky eating she got from me came from…YOU dad!”
I don’t find the attitude at all helpful or loving. I think there’s a difference between thinking (or maybe saying) you’ll understand when you have kids of your own. But it’s different to imply that I was the kind of child that deserves some type of “revenge” in the form of payback with a child that gives me trouble in any way. As if my childhood was something I DID to my parents that was worthy of payback.
A man in my Sunday school class once said that whatever you did as a kid/teen, your kids will do 10 times worse and he let out a big laugh. I was very insulted by his remark. My husband and I have been raising our kids differently than we were raised to avoid such things.
Yes, the “payback” mentality is strange, although I’ve mostly just heard it in the context of joking, not intending to be mean-spirited, so I try to just take it that way and move on.
I think of Romans 12… rejoice when others rejoice, mourn when others mourn… which, of course, is how we as Christians should treat each other, not letting the world’s mentality of children as a burden seep into our theology of parenting.
But, for me, Romans 12 comes into play more often with my kids’ interactions with each other… it bothers me when one child turns into an obedient princess for the sake of looking better than the other one is being naughty, or when my son laughs when his little sister is crying. He’s the one with autism, and I haven’t come up with an effective way to teach him that we *mourn* when others mourn, not *rejoice* when others mourn!
Wow. That sounds really unkind. Personally, I don’t feel as if I’ve ever heard anyone REALLY wish ill on other parents. I’m not saying they’re not out there — I’m saying that I haven’t personally encountered this.
I have read of the incident in Maria von Trapp’s life — she was apparently an “incorrible” child, and finally, a teacher “wished” on her that she would “someday have a child just like you.” And she did! But she saw that as GOD acting in her life — not as a horrible negative. I think.
Anyway, I have “looked” for years at families and wondered sometimes, why children have acted as they did. But it’s a source of grief, if a child is truly rebelling. No joy or laughter in it. And GOD can move and bring that child to repentance! Even as an adult!
Susan (mother to eight)
I hope my children have children who are “just like” themselves. so that they can understand how very much I love them. and from that extrapolate how infinatly more God loves them. My DH was a “Strongwilled” child, so is my younger son. DH is such a wonderful man & I’m convinced that much of his inborn personality style has been passed on to our 9yod. the “growing pains” are worth it. Our older son is MUCH like me, boy has it been like looking into a soul-mirror, painful to see your own sin-tendancies.
No one says to her daughter, “I hope you get strech marks, and varicose veins and morning sickness and painful ligaments and sleepless nights” but many hope with their daughter that she will become pregnant, and those things just kinda come with the territory.
The physical and emotional pain and subsequent spiritual growth of parenting are part of the blessing of raising children.
I know that nothing can shape my child’s heart like parenthood. and I hope they have children “just like” themselves.
Mrs Nehemiah
PS. I hope I can be there to encourage and uplift them throughout, and fulfill Romans 12 with them.
I don’t think I’ve ever encountered someone who desired payback in the spirit of true ill will. I think sometimes when people make payback jokes about children, they are just trying to comment on the irony of parenting.
My dearest friend used a payback joke to humorously confront me about my critical spirit. I was very opinionated about child-rearing BEFORE I had children. I took her good natured ribbing in the spirit it was given because I knew she was trying to help me see how judgemental I was.
I consider my mother’s laughter about how my daughter is just like me as commiseration. She understands. I will often call her and ask what she did to help me when I did the same things. Her laughter is coupled with solid Christian wisdom, so it is not hurtful to me at all.
I have been offended by a fellow Christian’s comments on my parenting skills, but even then I don’t think she was trying on purpose to be mean, she was just thoughtless in her words. I guess in the end, it is imperative for a Christian to be careful in the the little things, those comments that may seem like nothing to the speaker, but may wound the listener.
I’ve heard this on a personal level when my husband and I went through a very difficult spell with my stepdaugher and a relative said ‘now you know what you were like’…in other words, this was my payback! It wounded me deeply at the time, but it taught me to be supportive and kind to parents who went through difficulties with their children. I’ve never understood why people feel the need to say mean things like that.
1 Cor. 13:6 says,”[Love] does not rejoice in wrongdoing but rejoices with the truth.” It sure seems like these people are rejoicing in wrongdoing!
I really can’t imagine wishing a challenging child on one of my children. I have one who can challenge me, but I have never hoped she would be challenged in the same way when she grows up and becomes a parent.
It seems like in lots of cases the payback mentality is repeated without giving thought to what is really being said and heard. This is not an excuse, but perhaps is indicative of a deeper issue. We’re told in Proverbs that “as a man thinketh in his heart, so he is”… I think the “payback mentality” stems from a belief of “you get what you deserve”, which in my view stands in direct opposition to the grace and blessing of God. We don’t get what we deserve, Praise the Lord!
just a thought…
I think there are a couple of versions of this “payback” idea. I think one is truly vindictive, where you wish someone ill because you’re angry at them/don’t like them. You take delight in their trials because they criticized you, and now you’re thrilled that they have some trouble so that they know how you felt in that situation, etc. This is clearly not a Christian mindset. Then, I think there’s a good-natured, smiling, “See! I told you this could happen,” that friends can share. This would just be more of an understanding smile and a gladness that now your friend has an increased understanding of what you went through, so now you have something else in common that you share. That, I don’t think, is such a bad thing. But there’s sometimes a fine line between these two “payback” ideas. I hope this wasn’t completely incoherent. =)
I know what you are talking about… my mother-in law butted in to my husband scolding his daughter over not trying to eat her dinner because it wasn’t something she cared for (she is very very picky), she said “now don’t forget Keith that you were the same way.” I didn’t say anything but I was thinking that how Keith acted as a child doesn’t change the fact that we are still trying to get our child to try new foods.
I do find it annoying that others laugh at my parental griefs, claiming, “well you were that way too as a child.” Being a parent sure doesn’t offer much in the way of support!
Blessings to you Sallie!
PS. On a side note, I was part of a MOPS group for about a year, and decided to not do it again this year because I didn’t feel like I exactly fit in and I’m 25! I know you mentioned that you didn’t feel like you would fit in with the younger moms, and I wanted you to know that even though I am a young momma, I didn’t feel like I fit either.
I have to agree with comment #9 above. I have never really seen anybody saying these kinds of comments and really wishing real ill on parents. They are commenting on the irony of parenting. And sometimes when people don’t know how to deal with their pain about a certain sit’n they say stupid things b/c they don’t know what else to do. I have seen that alot in my Father-in-law… I find it sad to see a 75 year old man acting so immature. We all could apply and use alot more grace than we give each other, I think.
Mostly everyone here wrote about the grandparents saying these sort of things or having these attitudes, and luckily I’ve not experienced that.
I’ve experienced this attitude and treatment from peers and competitive parents around me. I find myself wanting to become a hermit and just not get involved with others. . . better to feel peace at home than go out in public to make oneself vulnerable to such scrutiny.
This goes on even at our church among a certain set of moms AND dads. Very competitive = very insecure.
It’s a sad state of affairs.
I agree with you. The worlds way, sadly, is a way of payback. This should not be the way Christians view things. As parents we should be striving to raise not merely “good” children but godly children. In wishing (even during stressful time) that our children experience these things with their own children is counter productive. If we want our children to be godly we must also set the example and treat them in a godly manner as well. We should be looking to raise our children with generations in mind, not only our children but our grandchildren also. Let us move even further…we want to raise not merely godly children but children who will in turn raise godly children. We cannot do this if we are wishing or expressing (out of anger or frustration) the opposite example for them.
Just my $0.02
i have enjoyed your blog, please stop by and visit mine sometime.
This subject is covered in my BSF study this week–now, that is a group of women I think you would like. I’m enjoying my morning somen’s group, it’s nice to meet with other women who are serious about studying the Bible, it’s a better fit for me than MOPS. Here’s a list of classes in your state: http://www.bsfinternational.org/Default.aspx?tabid=81&PageID=1
It was in a list of world thinks/Christ thinks handout to share with your children, but they encouraged everyone to pick it up, even if they didn’t have children. (And yes, they agreed, the world thinks “you get what you deserve,” Christ does not.
Oh, I agree with the above recommendation for BSF. And their children’s program is OUT OF THIS WORLD! They start with 2 year olds and their time is intentional, valuable, planned with great care and concern for each child in their stage of development, spiritually and otherwise. It has been the perfect complement to our spiritual training at home. I think most Sunday School programs could learn a great deal from the BSF children’s program.
Plus, I have benefited greatly from the structured study of God’s word.
A tangent…sorry…
I wonder too how/if Beth Moore’s popularity has affected BSF. I know I would prefer doing a study like Beth Moore (for the reasons you mentioned such as greater opportunity for fellowship. But the children’s program will win me over as long as I have little ones to bring.
I’m praying and hoping and agreeing with commenters above that *MOST* of the time the whole payback issue is really just a joke poking fun at the irony of parenting.
For instance, my mama loves me so much it isn’t even funny. She would jump in front of a train for me to this very day. So I know she wishes no ill will upon me in any way.
However, my 5 year old HATES to have her hair washed, brushed, fixed, anything. My mother laughs and snickers and says “boy you deserve this for all the grief you gave me with YOUR HAIR!” Does she mean that she’s really happy my daughter kicks me in the shins when I try to detangle her hair? No.
It is the irony of “what goes around comes around” in parenting.
Now, when complete strangers do this, it is completely different. But I have to hope that 95% of the time it is an innocent commentary of life?
So many good thoughts! And it did help me clarify in my mind the main word that would describe the attitude I have seen. That word would be satisfaction. It is as though there is a certain satisfaction in seeing someone “get what they deserve for what they put me through”. Maybe it is like the whole “karma” idea. (No, I don’t believe in karma, but I think that is a similar concept.) Anyway, I don’t think it was ever meant in a vindictive way where I have witnessed it, but there was a satisfaction and glee that was a bit too much for me to be comfortable with as a Christian.
Re: BSF. Yes, BSF is wonderful… with a caveat. I was in BSF for a few years and then was a discussion leader. BSF is wonderful if your sole focus is to study the Bible. I don’t think it is the best way to find fellowship. The children’s program is very good from all I have seen. I always picked up the children’s papers if there were some left over because they were so good. David and I have already discussed that one of us is going to have to do BSF again so Caroline can go through the program. I found the rigidity of the adult discussion groups very challenging. It was especially so because I was going through a time when I was dealing with some very legalistic people in my life and the rigidness of BSF for leaders especially was just too much for me. The dress code, the planning the timing of the discussion down to the minute for each question, the required kneeling to pray, etc. was too structured for me at that point in my life. That being said, I am sure I will probably do BSF again sometime because it is such a great study.
And now for total thread drift (but since I started the thread I can drift at will)… I have wondered how the rise of Beth Moore’s popularity has impacted BSF. Anyone know anything about this?
I am an INTP, and I rebel at the rigidity of BSF at times, but I’m learning a lot, and my discussion group is great…it includes 2 ladies who were persecuted for their faith in China and now live in the U.S. Their faith is clear through their broken English, it is amazing. We have a once a month meeting for fellowship for our discussion group. The classes for my 2 year old and 5 year old are excellent, and I appreciate the materials to supplement the lessons.
My 5 year old doesn’t like her children’s service at church, she now goes to service with us, but she loves BSF. (And, we weren’t going to have her come to church with us until she was a little older because of the negative experience my husband had from being drug to adult services as a small child; however, since it’s her choice and she’s enjoying the service with us, it’s great to have her there with us.)
I know that at least our BSF group has noticed a fall off in the under 35 crowd, and are looking at what they can do about this, I’m not sure if it’s nationwide or not.
Also, BSF in our area doesn’t kneel to pray, and most of the women do wear dresses, but many don’t, and there is no formal dress code that I know of, although there might be one for discussion leaders.
“And it did help me clarify in my mind the main word that would describe the attitude I have seen. That word would be satisfaction. It is as though there is a certain satisfaction in seeing someone ‘get what they deserve for what they put me through’…there was a satisfaction and glee that was a bit too much for me to be comfortable with as a Christian.”
I’ve been searching for the word to describe this behavior as well, and it finally hit me — this behavior strikes me as “ungracious.” As others have said, this might not always be the case, sometimes this kind of thing is meant more to be empathetic…but I wish people would err on the side of tact and refrain from “payback” comments which could make others feel uncomfortable or teased. I tend to think that sometimes such comments are more of a reflection of the giver than the recipient. 🙂
Best wishes,
Laura
Elizabeth B. – Yes, the kneeling and dress code is for leaders. I think that is a universal BSF policy. Again, I don’t think there is anything wrong with it and understand why they do it, but for where I was at that time in my life it was just too much on top of everything else coming at me. 🙂 That was interesting that your group has noticed a falloff in the under 35 group…