I blog about the things I think about. And based on some of my recent entries I’m sure it has been obvious that I’ve been thinking about the role of women in the church. Katy asked me if I would share a bit more about this and so I’m going to.
The Role of Women in the Church
I will admit to doing this with some apprehension. First, I know how passionately people feel about this topic and how it can be such an emotionally charged topic for so many. Second, I really don’t want to get into a huge discussion about this with people who normally don’t read here, but have the role of women as one of their pet issues. And, yes, these people exist and love to go from blog to blog and discussion board to discussion board diving into every jot and tittle about this topic. I’d rather have this be like a discussion over a cup of coffee with the folks who regularly read here, not a free for all with whoever seeks out these topics online. And, third, it is just scary for me to start in on a topic where I do not feel I can answer every question or challenge someone might make. Nobody wants to look stupid, including me. So I hereby reserve the right to use the answer, “I just don’t know.”
The past few days I’ve been thinking about this post and let’s face it. It’s huge. It’s huge in its importance and it’s huge in its scope and magnitude. To even try to do it justice in one lengthy post isn’t even going to happen. So that’s why I put Part 1 in the title. I’m just going to start the ball rolling today and we’ll see where this goes. I have no agenda except to start and see where God leads.
I’ll admit right up front that I don’t have all the answers. I have some convictions, some theories, and lots of questions. But to get started I’ll share a few key points that impact how I view this whole topic.
Women in the Church Doctrine is Complex
First, I don’t care what anyone says — this topic of the role of women in the church is not simple and cut and dried. Anyone who gives pat answers and can explain the proper role of women in a few sentences in which they quote a couple of verses has probably never really studied the issue in depth. People who say they know how all women are supposed to live and can tell you in detail what a woman’s role is and isn’t scare me spitless. I run in the other direction.
Second, a lot of people don’t want to study this issue because it is scary and the implications if they find out they need to change their mind are too overwhelming. And so people just ignore it and hope it will go away or at least not impact them directly. This includes people in church leadership. They say it isn’t important enough and it’s too divisive so they don’t want to go there. But for the women sitting in the pew who are treated like second class citizens and who are unable to use their gifts in the church, it is devastatingly important.
Third, the application of a church’s so-called convictions can be incredibly inconsistent. Many churches say they believe one way but they act differently. It drives me nuts to see how churches try to justify all kinds of behaviors that are just plain wrong.
An Egalitarian Marriage
David and I were discussing this last night (when we should have been asleep) and we agreed that we definitely are egalitarian in how we run our home and interact with each other in our marriage. When we look at the way we live there is just no doubt about it. We serve each other and submit to each other. I can only think of one time in the eleven years we’ve been married when we had a difference of opinion about something major and could not come to an agreement on it. We work very hard to communicate and respect the opinion of the other. We don’t do it perfectly all the time, but we do make it a top priority.
The only way I can think of that David “leads” in the traditional sense of the term is that he usually says grace before we eat. But I bet if I went to him right now and asked if we could take turns he would say yes without even needing to think about it.
So would David and I define ourselves as biblical egalitarians? I’m not sure. What are we? I guess that would be another post. 🙂
Stories of Men Changing Their Mind About Women’s Roles
To close this post, here are two interesting personal stories. The first one, Patriarchy Challenged: One Man’s Story, resonated strongly with David because his experience in marrying me closely paralleled a lot of what this man went through. The second is lengthy, but very good: From Bobbed Hair, Bossy Wives and Women Preachers to Woman Be Free: My Story.
In closing, I thought I would share a good quote from the first link. (Bold mine)
One of the most compelling arguments against gender roles in the life and ministry of the church is simply the experience of seeing God-called women exercise their God-given gifts for the sake of the Gospel and the church. This is an argument from experience, and it compliments the good theology on this subject.
The deepest questions of theology and practice are not answered exclusively by exegesis. We, of course, desire to place the Scriptures in the highest authority and center our beliefs and practices upon them. But there are limitations. John Stackhouse is right when he states that the task of Christian theology is to, “formulate an interpretation that does the best job, relative to the other options, of explaining most of the most important data and as much of the remainder as possible” (Stackhouse, 75). In other words, we don’t have to have a watertight position, just one that is stronger than the alternatives.
If you can accept that I won’t have a watertight position but am looking for the best one I can understand, then I look forward to exploring this topic here.
May God bless you with wisdom from the Holy Spirit as you think through these issues for yourself. 🙂
Hi Sallie,
I don’t usually post here but I was not searching for this subject so I thought I could just tell you that I really appreciated this post and how you approached this subject. I have looked around your blog and you have done a great job. I will make sure I bookmark this and come back and visit more often.
“May God bless you with wisdom from the Holy Spirit as you think through these issues for yourself.”
Since becoming Quaker and really learning to be still and listen, God has blessed me with wisdom from the Holy Spirit as I thought through these issues. I’m not trying to push Quakerism on anyone here, I merely wanted to give a little background. Just by merely waiting for him to speak to my condition some many issues have been resolved in my life. Thank God for the peace and nonjudgemental attitude this has brought me.
I’m off to read the articles and to pray about this and to discuss it with my husband. Our marriage is very similiar to yours, Sally, as that we both discuss issues. There’s only one thing that we are going through right now where I am learning to listen and follow my husband, but as a whole we are in this life together.
Thanks for the link to Bobbed Hair, Bossy Housewives. I especially appreciate the paragraphs toward the end, starting at Understanding the Big Picture. Not only is it important to look at the roles of women under the understanding of Redemptive History, but I’m finding that all things should be viewed through the eyeglasses of God’s Redemptive Plan. So many times even the simplest verses are taken out of context, that if viewed through the eyes of Redemption would change the entire outlook. It is a good reminder to look at the whole while also studying the minute in scripture.
I’ve not posted very much on your blog before, Sallie, but I’m going to come out of the closet for this one. I hope my comments are gracious and my demeanor is loving for that is what I intend.
When I look at your description of your marriage, Sallie, it almost describes exactly my relationship with my husband of twenty years. We also serve and respect each other, listen to each other’s opinions, communicate well, and discuss things before decisions are made. My husband treats me like a queen, and I try to treat him like a king. We have learned and are still learning to prefer each other above ourselves. We both love and respect each other very much. Now don’t be shocked–we are complementarians, long-term, confirmed complementarians. Except for your comment about submitting to each other (which I hope you will define so I know exactly what you mean), I’m not sure how your definition qualifies you and David to be egalitarians as far as marriage goes. What you described is almost exactly what the Bible describes as a godly marriage relationship. So far you have little to quibble about with the complementarian.
The plain teaching of Scripture is that the husband is the head of the wife (Eph. 5:23, 1 Cor. 11:3) and she is to submit to him (Eph. 5:22, Col. 3:18). Ephesians 5 makes it abundantly clear that the marriage relationship is a picture, a living illustration, of the relationship between Christ and His Church. The husband represents Christ and the wife represents the Church. If I as a wife do not submit to my husband, I am lying about the Church’s relationship to her savior, saying that the Church does not need to submit to her Lord. But here’s something else to notice that is often overlooked: The husband, as the representative of Christ in this illustration, is to love his wife as Christ loved the Church. And what did Christ do for His Church? He loved her and willingly laid down his life for her. That is how a husband is to love his wife (which I personally think is the harder of the two tasks assigned to husband and wife). Yes, there have been far too many instances of husbands abusing their position of authority and who don’t love their wives as Christ loved the Church. The problem lies not with the biblical command but with the husband. The two roles of the husband and wife go hand-in-hand; if either is missing, the couple is giving a false picture of the relationship between Christ and the Church.
I am very concerned about this statement from the author of the blog you quoted: “One of the most compelling arguments against gender roles in the life and ministry of the church is simply the experience of seeing God-called women exercise their God-given gifts for the sake of the Gospel and the church. This is an argument from experience, and it compliments the good theology on this subject. The deepest questions of theology and practice are not answered exclusively by exegesis.” The deepest questions of theology can indeed be answered by exegesis alone. Experience is subjective and unreliable and not God-breathed. One person’s experience of women in the church may be entirely different than another’s, and so what can be gained from experience in that instance? God has given us His inerrant, infallible, concrete, and unchangeable Word so we will know what to believe and how to live. Experience is a poor, troublesome, and unreliable guide for living. That’s what the Word is for.
Role distinctions within the Church do not “prohibit women from exercis[ing] their God-given gifts for the sake of the Gospel and the church.” There are many areas of ministry open to women which are sometimes missed completely because of the pressure on women to get back to their careers when their childrearing duties have lessened or disappeared. They simply don’t have the time if they are devoting lots of time to outside employment. I myself look forward to spending more time in these areas of ministry when my children are grown. If God has gifted a woman to do a particular thing, He will make a way for her to exercise that gift in His own time and within the parameters He has established in His Word. And it’s vital that we remember that just because we want to do something does not mean that we should, whether man or woman. Wanting to do something is not the same thing as being called to do it.
And of course, there has been a lot of misunderstanding amongst people who believe in role distinctions about what those distinctions are and how to apply them. That’s part of why egalitarianism looks so appealing to some people, I think, because of the misunderstanding and abuses. But when it’s applied rightly and biblically, complementarianism is a beautiful thing and shows the world and the Church a glorious picture of the relationship between Christ and His Church.
There is much more I could say, but I will stop here. If you or anyone else is interested in reading more about the complementarian view, the best place to go is the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood (www.cbmw.org). I hope I’ve been gracious, civil, and unoffensive in what I’ve written and in the manner I’ve written. As you said, it is an issue people feel very passionate and emotional about.
Hi Ladies! Thanks for your comments. I’ve got a little one who isn’t interested in sleeping this evening and it’s almost 11:30 so this will be brief!
womanofthehouse: Thanks for your thoughtful comment. You were very gracious and kind.
When I said that we are egalitarian in how we function I mean that we do not really do anything based on gender roles. We do what we do because we do it best as well as who has the physical ability and time to do the job. I cook, but if I had been fortunate enough to marry a man who cooked well… Well, I would have been even more happy than I am now! It wouldn’t bother me if I had to sit down to a well-prepared meal each night! David and I divide up household duties according to who can best do them. In all honesty, I think David changes more diapers than I do. Partially because it always seems like Caroline has a poopy diaper when I’m making a meal! We both get her ready for bed, we both feed her, we both take care of her. We both do the financial stuff, handling different aspects. David handles the business accounts and I handle the personal stuff. We both work the business and are co-owners. David vacuums at times, sometimes I do it. Who watches Caroline depends on who has the sooner deadline. We just do what works. David has the gifts of mercy and service. I am a leader, organizer and a teacher. These gifts impact how we relate in our marriage. There is just no way they can’t impact how we function.
Re: the submitting to one another… Maybe a better way to put it would be preferring one another. We both try to put the needs of the other above our own. Sometimes I think David does a better job of it and sometimes I do. Generally I think David is better at it than I am, to be honest.
Re: the role of experience… I was sure someone would bring up that aspect of the quote. I don’t know how our experiences can’t shape our theology and understanding of God. Our experiences cannot trump God’s Word and they have to be viewed through an understanding of Scripture, but there are many issues of a secondary nature where godly men and women disagree and I have to believe part of that disagreement is brought about by our experiences.
Re: role distinctions and women using their gifts… I very much disagree. This is especially true in the areas of women exercising gifts of leadership, teaching, discernment and prophecy. How does a woman use those gifts in meaningful ways in churches where there is strong role distinction? I’ve been in churches where women used those gifts quite freely and churches where women would have almost no opportunity to use them and the difference is profound. For women who have these gifts, it is agonizingly difficult to know what to do with yourself. When God creates you a certain way and gifts you in certain ways, He means for you to use those gifts and abilities. To not do so is both frustrating and depressing.
Do I call myself a biblical egalitarian? No. Can I call myself a complementarian? No. What am I? Something somewhere inbetween. Or maybe I am an egalitarian and I just am not ready to admit it. For one thing, to do so means I will instantly be villainized by a large segment of the church. But I was honest in saying that David and I function as egalitarians in our marriage. And I think a lot of marriages are a lot more like that than people necessarily want to admit or think about. And I don’t think it is because women have a problem with submitting. I think it is what naturally works and I don’t think it is unbiblical.
So I guess this is where I get to say, “I just don’t know.”
I know I haven’t really done justice to any of these comments, but I didn’t want to go to bed without responding. 🙂
Some interesting discussion here….just wondering what happened to the comment I left here earlier?
Sallie, thanks for your post, it’s always good to discuss this issue and provided, as you say, very helpful when people are open and honest and willing to listen to other.
After reading womanofthehouse I would have to completely agree on everything she has said and I would offer the same argument from Ephesians 5. I was also particularly surprised after reading through your post when you mentioned that you were egalitarian. Like womanofthehouse your situation very much describes my husbands and my relationship, and yet we are convinced complementarians. This is not a position we have arrived at quickly and rashly, it’s something that we have read tonnes about, weighing up Scripture and the arguments for it over against egalitarianism. What is interesting is that practically speaking we have not really changed too much of what we have done in our roles. It has been natural for me to do house stuff, deal with financial things, DIY (my husband has no clue about finance/DIY!) and give birth to our 3 kids. It has been natural for my husband to pursue his calling to be a pastor and preacher of God’s Word and bring more spiritual insight to our marriage. What I would say however is that we have come to understanding that God has made us equal, yet different. There are things that only he can do/or give to the marriage relationship, and there are things that only I can do/give to the marriage realationship. We are equal, yet different, there is no need for either of us to want or try to do what the other is designed for. Ultimately this is where I would differ from an egalitarian who says that both man and woman are equal and no different.
When it comes to issues in the church this is when it becomes a big hot potato for everyone, when I don’t think it needs to be.
Sallie, you said:
“Re: role distinctions and women using their gifts… I very much disagree. This is especially true in the areas of women exercising gifts of leadership, teaching, discernment”
I would have to disagree. Women who have leadership and teaching gifts have more than ample opportunity in their churches to exercise these gifts…if they really had the heart to do so. I am speaking of women who apply themselves to leading and teaching other women what it means to live and be a woman for God’s glory. So many women who have a leadership and teaching gift instantly believe they have God’s rubber stamping to go ahead and take over the church and sadly miss what could be a strong and vibrant ministry among other women. I’m pretty passionate about the command to Titus , chapter 2:3-5.
Older women likewise are to be reverent in behaviour, not slanderers or slaves to much wine. They are to teach what is good and to train the young women to love their husbands and children, to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind, and submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled.
The over-arching theme of these verses is that Paul expects older women to encourage and teach younger women what biblical womanhood looks like in practice, by example and explanation. Note that Paul does not trust this mission to Titus himself, but urges him to ensure that the older women in his church grasp the importance of their role in instructing the young women how to live.
There are only things that women can teach women and only things that men can teach men and there is sadly a lack (especially here in the UK) of godly vibrant female ministries where God has endowed certain women with leading and teaching gifts, but have never used them in accordance with such passages above.
Ultimately, we all need to be convinced of what God says in his Word, and for me, from Genesis through to Christ and to revelation it oozes with teaching on what it means to be a man and woman with Christ’s sacrificial life the ultimate example – one who embodies sacrificial leadership (of his church) and sacrificial submission (to his Father).
Good discussion! More postings on this topic in the future, I hope?
Melanie,
I’m not sure what happened. There is nothing from you in the moderation panel. Please leave your comment again!
Sallie
Nicki,
Hello! Just to clarify… I didn’t say I was an egalitarian. I said we very much are egalitarian in the way we relate to each other in our marriage. I just wanted to draw that distinction. As I said in an earlier post, I’m not totally comfortable with women being elders so I am not completely in the egalitarian camp.
You said:
I guess what I would ask you and womanofthehouse is this: You both have indicated that your marriages sound like they function like I have described mine. Then how would you say your complementarianism impacts your marriage in a way that my view doesn’t impact mine? For example, can you give three examples of ways that you submit to your husband? Or ways that you function and he functions that are dependent on being male and female? What do you mean by “there is no need for either of us to want or try to do what the other is designed for.” Other than the obvious (having a baby), what are you thinking of here?
I would also ask… what if the woman brings more spiritual insight to the marriage? Is that unnatural or is it just a plain fact that in some marriages the woman is more spiritually mature and insightful? What do you mean by natural? Natural as in God-ordained roles or natural in that these are they ways you and your husband are particularly wired?
Thanks, ladies! 🙂
Nicki,
Just another thought… Over on your website you mentioned Dr. Helen Roseveare and the book you are reading. She sounds like a remarkable woman. I am wondering what you think of her speaking to mixed groups. I took the link to the notes on the Desiring God website and it certainly sounds like she was teaching the Scriptures at that conference. And in her Wikipedia bio it says that she was a plenary speaker three times at Urbana. Having been to Urbana myself I can safely assume this means she was teaching a mixed group from the Scriptures. What are your thoughts on this?
For the record, I am personally completely comfortable with what she did in her ministry as I’ve briefly outlined above. I have no problem with women teaching the Scriptures to mixed groups as she did at these conferences (in case anyone reading here hasn’t heard me state my views on this before).
Warmly,
Sallie
Your marriage sounds a very much like ours Sallie. Like you, I am not sure what our “label” would be. When I think of egalitarian I think of two people working side by side doing whatever needs to be done, a certain job being done by the person who does it best, etc. In some marriages that call themselves complementarian ladies do things like give their husbands a “to do ” list in the morning for them to fill out, have their husbands choose their clothes, etc. I am not saying that the ladies who commented here have marriages like this at all! Its just that role distinction and submission/rulership can be carried too far. One lady I know actually said that she and her husband had watched a period film, and that her husband now wanted her to curtsy to him every day. A little too Ibsen for me! As for women using their gifts…I watched my roommate come home and cry in her bedroom every day after coming home from work where she was a children/family minister because of the total lack of respect she received.
Sallie,
Thanks for the clarfication, sorry I misread that. Here’s some answers to some of your questions.
Firstly, let me say that we both submit equally to one another, (Eph 5:21) yet, how we submit differs (Eph 5:22-25). To give three practical examples: (1) I defer ultimate spiritual nurturing of our family to my husband, though my role in this is just as important as I’m with the children more than he is. 2. I expect my husband to spiritually lead us as a couple, taking the initiative in spiritual matters, addressing aspects of our marriage with God’s word. This is not to say that I may not be proactive at times, it’s just that my expectation is that this is my husbands role as God had commanded. 3. My husband also has come to recognise that it is important for him to take initiative in any necessary reconciliation, given the fact that Christ took the initiative to give himself up for the church and reconcile her to God.
Although these are but three examles of how we practically work out God’s command in Ephesians 5, it’s not just about specific things that we should or should not do, it’s about a demenour, an attitude, a mindset, that is to say that as a wife I must constantly battle against my inherent sinful desire to undermine my husband and usurp his authority (just as the husband has to battle against the temptation to selfishly abuse his authority). This is what we see playing out back in Genesis 3 and the curse laid on man and woman because of their sin.
Briefly on the natural/unnatural questions. What I meant was how things naturally play out in our marriage and I recognise that this is not the case for every couple, nor should it be. Let me stress that to submit as God intended to my husband is not the most natural of things, it should be but sin prevents this. Neither of us started off naturally wired to submit and to lead, we both have to work hard at it. My husband finds it particularly hard to always take the initiative in spiritual things and to be proactive in reconciliation. I find it hard at times to allow him to make the final call on something that I might not be 100% happy with but I have to trust him in his role as a leader of our family who will sacrificially put his life on the line for us.
As I said before, it is about a mindset and obedience to God’s Word and for the wife who is more spiritual than her husband (and there are many women in my church who struggle with this, desperate for their husbands to take a lead in their home) husbands need to be challenged and such wives should continue to lovingly support their husbands.
I’ll stop here. I’ve rambled on too much! Nicki 😉
Just noticed your next comment…Ultimately I believe that it the responsibility of the man to preach and teach God’s people (1 Tim 2). However, under the authority of male leadership I do not have a problem with exceptional circumstances such as Dr Roseveare ministering to men and women. I’m sure John Piper shares this view since he asked her to speak at his conference, but if you asked him if she could become part of his preaching team it would be a different matter.
OK I’m away to take the kids out. They’re still on their holidays and needing out!
Sallie (and others),
If you are looking for a robust summary of the egalitarian and complementarian views and objections to each of the positions can I recommend that you read this article, Summaries of the Egalitarian and Complementarian Positions on the Role of Women in the Home and in Christian Ministry by Bruce Ware.
I’ve also found 50 Crucial Questions by Piper & Grudem invaluable in answering many of the difficult questions posed of the complementarian position. It hardly costs much and is worthwhile for anyone seriously thinking through their position.
Nicki,
I only have a minute before I have to make supper but wanted to say…
You said:
This is one of the practical outworkings of complementarianism that I find intellectually unsatisfying. If a woman is not permitted to teach or have authority over a man, then she shouldn’t be teaching or having authority over a man. Period. I don’t see how a man telling her it is ok makes it ok. And if women aren’t to teach and have authority over a man because of Genesis and the complementarian appeal to the created order, then she shouldn’t be teaching or having authority over a man. Period.
And where does one draw the line and determine what is an “exceptional circumstance”? Is an exceptional circumstance a one-time thing? What about an exceptionally gifted woman? Does her whole life become an exception? Who determines who is qualified for an “exceptional circumstance” and who isn’t?
I’m not attacking you at all, Nicki, so I hope it doesn’t come across that way. This is one of the questions that I have about complementarianism that has never been adequately answered for me. And this is one of those questions that makes me feel that it is just as big a leap of faith to be a complementarian and dance around the various issues such as this as it is to become an egalitarian.
Most complementarians are not going to come out and say that a woman can never speak in front of men. There are some who do, but I don’t think the vast majority of them want to be on the record saying that. But leaving the door open for this exception and that exception leads to more confusion in my mind.
And, I would also ask (whoever wants to answer this), why can Dr. Roseveare stand up and basically preach a Scripture-based message at a conference but she can’t do the same thing in a church worship service? And if she can do it in church because she is a visiting missionary, why can’t she do it every week? If women are to be silent and not teach men, why can she do it in some situations and not others?
Warmly,
Sallie
Wow, heavy stuff. I’m glad you’re tackling this, Sallie, and I’m eager to follow the discussion.
Sallie, I just wanted you to know that I’m working on a reply to your question, but I won’t be able to finish it tonight. I’ll try to get back to it tomorrow, but in the meantime, know that I’m not ignoring you. 🙂
It’s the middle of the night here in Scotland and my baby has just been up and I can’t get back to sleep so I thought I’d check in! I trust you when you say that you are not picking on me. I don’t feel picked on, I’m only trying to present what I believe Scripture is teaching and it’s healthy discussion!
Rather than put into my own feable words a response to your questions, (especially at this time of the morning) can I direct you to Piper and Grudem’s response which I find more than a satisfactory answer to your questions. Go here and scroll down to question 21. In a nutshell, I believe that 1 Timothy teaches us that the kind of teaching inappropriate for a woman is the teaching of men in settings or ways that dishonor the calling of men to bear the primary responsibility for teaching and leadership. This is why I mentioned Dr Roseveare’s and others like her situ would be an exception, rather than the rule.
At the end of the day we can all nit pick at each of the views but one must come to their own decision carefully believing it to be what Scripture teaches. I certainly don’t believe I have it all sown up, it’s been a long challenging process for me, which started off me being egalitarian. Being complimentarian doesn’t come naturally to me, as I said before I have to work hard at it, but I believe that this is what Scripture teaches. It’s like many things in Scripture that I’m commanded to do that I find difficult but that doesn’t make it optional. The problem lies with sin, our own desire to go against God and his plans for us.
Anyways, rather than this all being one-sided and all, what do you think Scripture is teaching us in Ephesians 5 and 1 Timothy and how would you apply this to your family situation and how would you see the outworkings of this in your own church?
Respectfully and with sisterly love, Nicki 😉 😉
I am reading this with great interest. My comment though has to do with Sallie and Nicki and others who are commenting. You are doing such a great job of being gracious and at avoiding putting the other on the defensive. I think God is pleased when His children can wrestle through an issue with kindness and integrity. Thanks for keeping the conversation in a way that honors Him.
Sallie,
Maybe I’ve missed something in a previous post, but I wondered if there is some specific area you are wanting to minister in which you have been hindered in the past. There’s no disputing that God always has and will continue to use Godly women to accomplish His purpose, and I agree with a previous comment that He is more than able to open the doors to allow us to minister to others. I don’t know your previous church situations, but I’m just curious about what area in which you are unable to partipate. The comments have been interesting, and I too am grateful for the pleasant attitudes. Thanks!
Hi Ladies!
I’ll be getting back here later this evening. I’ve had an under the weather husband this morning and Caroline didn’t go to bed until after midnight (a first!) so we’ve had a rather slow start to our day.
In the meantime, maybe some other ladies would jump in with their thoughts, especially if there is anyone from an egalitarian perspective.
Catch you later! 🙂
Karen E,
Thanks for your question. I’ll try to answer it as briefly as possible.
I have gone through a period of freely using my gifts and another period of not having any opportunities to use my gifts. I have had people question the legitimacy of my using my gifts in the past which has led me to wonder what I should be doing from that point on.
For example, I have had numerous opportunities to teach Sunday School, speak at InterVarsity conferences and meetings, lead Bible studies, etc. They all included mixed groups. I have no problem with it, David has no problem with it, and I have never felt convicted that it was wrong. I clearly saw that God gave me those opportunities and worked through me in those situations. However, at one point I had someone tell me flat out that it could not have possibly been God’s will for me to do those things because women are to be silent (literally) and if I felt empowered while doing them it could not have possibly been the Holy Spirit. I’m sure you can conclude who he believed was empowering me. He was dead serious.
I cannot reconcile the complementarian view of women not teaching mixed groups with the experiences I can clearly see that God gave me. I know that I cannot base my theology on my experiences, but they do impact how I study the two options of complementarianism and egalitarianism.
Like a number of women who I know read here, David and I also went through a quasi-patriarchal period where we read a lot about those teachings and discussed if they should apply in our marriage. Without a doubt, it was not beneficial for our marriage to even read about that stuff and discuss it. It did nothing to improve our marriage or draw us closer to God. THANK GOD that David was especially skeptical about the whole thing and our time in that stuff was more reading and discussing than actually living. It has nothing to do with our sinfulness or unwillingness to live as complementarians. We were just not convinced it is of God.
Because of things we’ve gone through in recent years, we have had a hard time settling into a church. We’ve struggled with what were the essentials and what we could live without. Toss in the whole women in the church thing and it has been HARD. We’ve been primarily in churches where women’s opportunities to minister in mixed groups were nonexistent. It does not work for us. We are now settling into a church in which the denomination has recently opened up ordination for women. This is such a huge shift for us and I’m still not completely convinced it is right. That’s why you won’t find me arguing the egalitarian view here because I’m not totally convinced. I’ve read both sides and I just don’t know. Neither view is airtight and both of them dance around some issues.
So that’s where I’m coming from. 🙂
Hi Nicki,
I’m not ignoring your question and I will try to get to it soon. 🙂
I did have one thought today related to the view that it is ok for women to teach in certain situations if they are under the authority of a man… Why is it that when the Scriptures say I do not permit a woman to teach or have authority over a man, that complementarians are willing to give an exception to the teaching part but no exception is given to the authority part? If a woman is not permitted to do A and B, why is that exceptions can be made for A and not B? (Throwing this out in general, not necessarily to Nicki.)
Sallie
A dear fellow blogger who I greatly admire and respect sent me an email this evening, directing me toward this post at Adventures in Mercy: Validity and Questions on the “Women Issue”. There is a fantastic discussion in the comments as well.
Although this has not come up yet in our dialog here, there is another thing that greatly troubles me about the complementarian position. There is a wealth of historical and cultural material out there that seems to not be fully taken into consideration when forming these conclusions. The more we learn and discover from these past cultures, the more we have to consider if it helps us to understand the Scriptures even more. And yet it does seem that many theologians and laypeople will not consider anything that does not fit their grid. This deeply bothers me.