I want to preface this post by saying something about these questions I’m throwing out while we’re in the Christmas busyness.
As with the question about educational items and gift giving, there is no way for me to address all of the finer points of these topics as I throw the question out. Sometimes I wonder if throwing these kinds of questions out makes me look dumb because I put them out there for discussion rather than writing a post and offering five points why I think “this” is the answer.
The truth is I really like to discuss ideas and hear how other people think about various issues and topics. So if I seem vague or uninformed, that isn’t always the case. It also isn’t the case that I don’t have strong convictions about a particular topic. I might have a strong opinion about something but keep it to myself for the sake of discussion. And other times I am just ruminating on some topic as I get a few spare minutes to think but I haven’t thought it all out.
So here is what I’ve been thinking about lately.
Has being debt-free and frugal become an idol in certain segments of the church? Or has it become a mark of holiness or status symbol by which Christians are measured? Does the Western church place an unhealthy emphasis on being debt-free and financially secure? How should Christians respond to brothers and sisters in Christ who struggle financially?
If the economy continues as it has been, there are going to be many, many Christians who suffer financially. Many will suffer through no fault of their own. How should the church respond? How should we respond personally if we end up in dire financial straits because we are living in this country at this time?
I would be interested to hear how people are thinking biblically about finances, debt and faith these days.
Educational Needs Versus Wants and Gift Giving?
It’s one thing to be debt-free, another to be financially secure.
The Bible tells us to be the former, but not necessarily the latter. The less we owe to others, the more we have to give.
These times will be a good opportunity to reach out to those who need it and to be humbled ourselves, I think, no matter what side of the coin we land.
Truly, I believe we have many issues in the Christian community that, by themselves, are wonderful ideals to embrace. However, I have noticed that frugality has taken a self-righteous turn in some circles right along with such things as homeschooling, breastfeeding, being a SAHM, and being a “skirts only” gal. Sometimes, I think that when people are going through a tough time financially or personally, it comforts them to feel as though they are the ones who are truly carrying out the work of God…while others are failing.
I just finished reading Alcorn’s “Money, Possessions, and Eternity.” It was very challenging. Everything was backed up with scripture, and made me think about a lot of things that I had not considered before.
It’s well worth reading for any Christian wanting to take a closer look about what the Bible has to say about these things.
I still need to think it through, have my husband read the book, and look again at the Bible and what it has to say, it was a lot of information, and talked about many areas of finances that are not written about or preached about often.
In the book, he does talk about how either extreme is sin, materialism or asceticism. Asceticism might be coming into play in certain segments of the church.
However, as a culture, we’re erring way on the side of materialism, and so are many in the church. (Although many people are going to have to cut down on their materialistic purchases…but materialism is also a state of mind, not always curbed by an reduced ability to spend, although changing habits can sometimes change thoughts and hearts.)
I would never equate debt-free living with holiness, although I have been around those who do, and I always come away feeling a bit trashy that we aren’t 100% out of debt. However, I know for us specifically, debt has been an ever-tightening noose about our necks that prevents us from meeting the needs of other brothers and sisters in Christ. That has been the #1 motivating factor for us to attack our debt a bit violently and to make “frugal” choices in many areas (but some areas aren’t frugal at all!).
Totally random thoughts before my coffee…
Lately I have been thinking about the fact that God puts each of us in a particular time and place in history. He didn’t put us here during the Middle Ages, the Revolution or the Civil War or the Roaring 20’s. He put us here right now. And we each have to follow Him in whatever circumstances we find ourselves in history. We are all impacted by the historical circumstances in which we find ourselves and oftentimes we cannot do anything to avoid them or their fallout.
I was contemplating what it would be like to raise Caroline during a severe depression, if that is indeed where we are headed. David and I may spend our “prime” earning years/decade during a severe economic downturn. This is far from ideal. And yet it was far from ideal when others raised their families during the Great Depression or spent their youth during WWI and WWII.
We are living in a time and place where those who do wrong are bailed out and those who do right are expected to pick up the tab. Those who lived well beyond their means get help and those who tried to be faithful to God’s principles are expected to bail them out, probably to their own financial detriment.
We are living in a time where those who worked hard for literally decades now find out there is no pension, no retirement funds. Greed and dishonesty are rampant. People who faithfully saved for retirement and did not invest in risky schemes can find their savings cut in half or more due to the dishonesty of others. Christians are not immune to this loss.
We are living in a time where almost everything we’ve been told about doing the prudent thing financially is in total upheaval. (I think that this is especially true for those of Generation X, but maybe that is my own prejudice.)
We are living in times that are going to be very hard to navigate for many people, Christians included. People can make happy talk about “getting back to what is important” during this downturn, but being wiped out financially is a complex issue that affects a person emotionally, physically, materially, relationally, and definitely spiritually. Being a faithful Christian does not protect someone from being wiped out. And in this day it can take literally only months to go from being comfortable to having NOTHING.
While I do agree that the church has bought into the materialism of the age, I also think that financial security has become a huge idol for some. Financial “Freedom” is preached as a high Christian goal. Those who struggle financially are pitied by those who have “arrived” financially and those who have done well tell those in debt they too could be financially free and comfortable if they would just “try harder” and be “more committed”.
I’m not convinced that every Western Christian is called to be economically secure. God may choose that some of His children are NEVER financially secure if it fits His plan for their lives and is the best means of their sanctification. Are those that struggle financially all their lives and are continually in and out of debt to be pitied? Looked down upon as weak or uncommitted or unwilling to make sacrifices? I think segments of the body of Christ have taken the “pull yourself up by your own bootstraps” American mentality and baptized it into “God helps those who help themselves” (which is NOT in the Bible) and d*amn it, if you aren’t out of debt and have a paid for house and blah blah blah then you are obviously just an inferior Christian who isn’t trying hard enough. Think I’m exaggerating? I think not and I bet there are at least a few people reading this who have been on the receiving end of this attitude in real life.
Sorry to burst anyone’s bubble this morning, but trying harder and being consistent doesn’t guarantee anything whether it is financial security or being debt-free for life or a baby sleeping through the night or getting all A’s. Life is not that simple and I think God makes sure it isn’t that simple to keep us humble and dependent on him.
Ok, rant off. Time to work. 😀
You know what I was trying to say?
It’s all grace.
Oh Sallie. I can tell you that unfortunately I have been on both the receiving and giving end of this.
While I do think it is wise and prudent for us to be as debt free as possible, I’m not going to argue that sometimes it is impossible. Most of our debt is medical debt incurred by our special needs child. She had surgery yesterday that added about $500 to that tab, which is just the portion we owe to the hospital, not to mention what insurance does pay out and prescriptions, etc. Add on top of that my husband’s layoff—-and I quit being a homeschool mom to go back to work so we could eat and pay the bills.
People can talk all they want, like I’ve done ignorantly before, but until you’ve lived the life of someone else and I hate the cliche, but—walked a mile in their shoes—you have no right to say what you would or would not do in any situation.
Hi Sallie, I enjoyed reading your thoughts on this, and your comment above.
I don’ t have any friends in the “financial freedom” crowd. (I’m Catholic, maybe not such a trend with us). It sounds to me like a separate philosophy altogether.
Anyhoo, the thing about widespread financial disasters like this is that they can affect those who did act responsibly as well as those who did not. And as you said, that is exactly what is happening here.
Many, many people work for a living. Most people work for a living. That is honorable. Sure, they might be carrying a mortgage, and even some other debts like a car payment, etc., so be it. it does not mean they are not living responsibly and taking care of their own. But if that job evaporates or their small business dries up, they are going to be in trouble, through no fault of their own.
I am also curious at how many articles etc. there are now about “living frugal.” It’s like it’s the new trend that the media is seizing upon, but honestly, people have been “living frugally” forever. It’s called being poor and it’s not new to many people in our country. Sort of a side note, but it kind of makes me chuckle when I see the media tripping over themselves to document this “new trend.”
How will churches respond? That is more complex, because they will be hurting too, as people will not be able to give as much. So will they be able to help people? Perhaps on an individual scale, but on a wider scale, not so sure.
Sallie,
You have given me some things to think about today (and so have all the commenters!)…One comment that I really liked was the first, where Meredith made a distinction between financial freedom and debt. In my experience, folks talking about “financial freedom” are really talking about something more akin to being wealthy. Since we are called to travel lightly and live lives of love and generosity, it seems that making wealth a goal is inappropriate.
I take it seriously when the Bible extols us to “owe nothing to anyone,” and yet we also have a mortgage because of what you said: living in the times we live in. We could NEVER have saved to buy a home in our area (renting is more expensive than mortgages right now), and yet our area is where our family has lived for generations. Leaving it isn’t something to be taken lightly.
One thing I have noticed, which might be a bit of a tangent but is still part of the overall subject, is that distaste for being “poor”. (I put it in quotes because when compared with many, we are not poor!) We have had folks tell us that our children need to be involved in x, y, and z. Now, most of x, y, and z aren’t really things our family is interested in doing, but even if we were, we would have to deal with the reality that we simply can’t afford many of those things. Dropping $40 for T-ball adds up quickly!
I think that part of the frugality obsession is a backlash against these sorts of pressures. I have often felt that others weren’t comfortable with what it looked like for us to live within our means, which basically means our simple life, my mostly undecorated house, and so forth. What I felt in those moments was that these folks would be much more comfortable with us appearing to be financially free than living the reality of having very little debt. Sometimes financial freedom is about appearances? I don’t know.
I am sorry for the long comment. I am thinking outloud while drinking my coffee here.
some live frugally to have “more” some live frugally to give “more” and some live frugally to have “enough” and sometimes that isn’t enough. I guess the only good reason to live frugally is that you’ve discovered the truth about God and his providence. with Him even “not enough” can be “enough” . Giving must come from having his Heart. not from a heart of showmanship (towards people, or God)
once again it comes down to relationship. am I spending this way out of a desire to be good enough for God, or the Church? then it is a sin. Am I living this way out of sincere love for God, trusting Him? then no matter how strange it is, provided it doesn’t break his expressed will.(murder, adultery, etc) it is not sin.
Romans 14 taken as a whole, indicates that pressing our personal convictions on our brethren can cause them to stumble, and is, therefore, in itself a sin. I could substitute “spend, spending” for “eat, eating” in that passage and get a very convicting message about my own attitudes.
Mrs N
my understanding of “financial freedom” was that your finances were not so tightly bound by debt, that you literally could not give. If you owe every cent that you make, then giving any is stealing from your creditors.
if you have a little wiggle room in your budget, then you can choose to save by deleting (sacrificing) some personal pleasures/treats and give that $ as the Lord leads.
I’ve never heard “financial freedom” used as a synonym for “wealth”
Mrs N
Actually, what I’m running into around here is a form of Christian frugalness that I call pseudofrugality. This is when Christian middle class stay at home moms hunt bargain after bargain, accumulating more and more stuff, and patting themselves on the back for being so “frugal.”
I have several friends and acquaintances who are a part of this movement, and I was starting to be sucked in. And then I had an epiphany, and I’m pulling back. But I’m realizing how many people believe that they’re truly frugal because they don’t buy the 4,000 toys that they have new.
I’m learning that it is very easy to talk yourself into believing that you’re being frugal, when in reality, you’re just as materialistic as the guy down the street. You still have tons of stuff you feel like you have to have, but you’re getting it from trolling Craig’s List instead of Macy’s. Materialism is a sneaky heart attitude, and I want it out of my heart. I don’t want my conversations with others to revolve around the latest deal we got on something we don’t really need.
Moving into a new house has made this mindset even more obvious to me. There are lots of things I’d like to get to decorate so that the place looks nice and charming. And what I’m doing instead is using what I have instead, even if it doesn’t completely work, and trying hard not to buy the extras, even if they seem “small.”
I guess, to answer your original question, from where I sit, I don’t see much emphasis on real frugality in the church culture around me. Maybe some churches make frugality into a spiritual gift, but at this point, I’d really see that as a blessing. Most of the homes I seem to visit these days are so nicely decorated that they don’t even look lived in sometimes. Maybe I’m just around too many people who go to large churches and aren’t into the homeschooling, breastfeeding, culture.
Maybe you can tell I’m just tired of it all and grumpy about it. I’d like to know more people whose homes are warm and inviting, but not brand new and practically over the top. Where are those people when I want to feel like I fit in, huh? =) (I am aware that it’s all relative and that my new house probably seems over the top to most, just not a lot of the people I currently know…. )
Sorry for coming across so crotchety. I’d like to blame it on the pregnancy hormones. =) Feeling sorry for myself, I guess, and hating the materialistic whirlwind that I get myself caught in too much.
This is sooo interesting to me.
But, I have to be extremely careful what I say on the subject.
Maybe this is totally ‘off topic’ but what I am starting to realize is that in Christian circles it has always seemed that one MUST be successful financially to qualify for any form of leadership at all.
And, I also struggle with what I can only call regret. I’m wondering if it truly was worth putting money we could have been saving into Christian schools for our three children. At the time, I thought that later in life things would get easier financially, but they have only gotten harder and harder. Exactly what does it look like to store up treasure in heaven? I thought I was doing it. Now, I wonder.
Due to someone breaking a ‘good faith’ agreement with us we are now struggling to honor our ‘good faith’ agreements made to others. That hurts.
It’s starting to appear that we are living a retelling of “The Little Red Hen”. I’m starting to see it everywhere. I think we need a NEW story called “The Little Red Hen of Grace” which comes, of course, when the Duck, Pig and Cat repent.
Mrs. Nehemiah – The way I was using the term Financial Freedom does refer to those who teach that if you accumulate enough you can live off what you have, not work, etc. People who believe this aren’t necessarily rich or wealthy. Some have learned to subsist on very little. But a big part of this mindset is the freedom from the need to work (which in and of itself is another discussion).
Ellen – I didn’t think you sounded crotchety at all! And even if you did, you’re pregnant and pregnant women always get a pass here if they get a little testy. 😆
But I thought you brought up a great point about pseudofrugality and how materialism comes in all shapes and sizes. Very insightful.
I’d love to have you come visit me because you would probably feel comfortable here. It’s full of things we’ve had a long time or have had passed down or on to us. I regularly circulate items from one room to another and have learned to hang on to things because I’m pretty sure they have a usefulness ahead. Once in a while I get in that “I really want everything new” frame of mind but it usually passes quickly. Two reasons. One, we really are blessed to have what we have and the ability to be (almost always) content with it. And two, I’ve done the redecorating and shopping thing. It takes too much energy! 😆
Judy – We must have been posting at the same time! I think your observation about wealth leading to leadership is probably very true in some circles. For many Christians and “Christians”, wealth = success so therefore success must = ability to lead.
Oh and the Christian school thing. I was just having an email conversation with someone yesterday about the cost of private and Christian schooling. Because of work I do for one of out clients, I’ve been doing a lot of research on private schools. The middle class is majorly getting squeezed out of private ed. It isn’t even a matter of choosing to save or send their children to Christian school like you mentioned. It is not being able to afford it at all. Period.
This is also kind of a tangent, but I’ve been thinking about the cost of private school and whether it is worth it versus homeschooling. You can do an awful lot of fabulous homeschooling and educational traveling for $5-$10k a year for one child. You can do an awful lot of fabulous homeschooling for a mere fraction of that amount. Either way it is an investment of time. Either you school your child or you have to work to make the money to pay for private school. Naturally the decision isn’t only an economic one, but when I look at it purely economically, I think homeschooling makes WAY more sense for us than private school. But I’m still thinking that through too. 😀
Thanks for the grace, Sallie. =) And about the cost of private school thing… I was on a school panel for MOPs the other day, representing homeschooling. Yeah, I know, I know, but they didn’t have anyone currently homeschooling, so they took me because I’d been homeschooled. Anyway, one of the ladies was talking about the local private, super expensive, Christian school. She said they used a particular curriculum that my brother and I decided was extremely boring and repetitive when we were coming up in homeschool. I just about choked when I realized she was paying $12,000 a year to have her children taught primarily from this curriculum. You could buy it online on Ebay I’m sure for a couple of hundred dollars, maybe, from homeschoolers who got fed up with it. Just my two cents. =)
Sallie- that is a downright scary philosophy! I would definatly run screaming from any book or class that taught we were supposed to grow rich enough to not work! If I remember correctly in the parable of the talents Jesus rewarded good work with MORE work!
Ellen- Our first set of curriculum came from the thrift store for $5. it was a big name private school set, no doubt dropped off by some poor homeschooler who had gotten “fed up with it” just as we later did, before re-donating it. at the time it was a blessing and I’m sure we got at least $4.59 value out of it, so no big loss.
Mrs N
So many good thoughts, so much to think about.
I think that this is also an American thing as much as it is a church thing. What it all boils down to is why in the heck are we basing the worth of PEOPLE off of how much money, lack of money, debt, lack of debt that they have. It is totally off base. I get that Jesus talked about money, but yes, Sallie, I think it is just yet another one of those things that people have made an idol and set up as one of the checkmarks on the “good Christian” / “good person” list. UGG!
My Dad flat out told me that I had never done anything worth being proud of, after many tears and thinking about this, I realized it was because we didn’t have alot of money. My husband is a blue collar worker, I stay home, we have had to go through a bankruptcy, we live paycheck to paycheck, by choice……..this is now the litmus test for my worth as a person. My Dad is not a Christian, but I do think that this is happening in The Church too. On both sides, if you are poor than you don’t love God enough, if you are rich then you don’t love God enough or are not obeying Him or have some other sin.
Amie,
I think a lot of what you are feeling is the effect of a society that likes everything to be measurable. They even attempt to measure things that are technically unmeasurable, like intelligence (hence IQ tests). Folks these days seem to be uncomfortable with intangibles and abstracts. They want to be able to see it and count it, weigh it and measure it, and use their five senses to determine its value. If churches have begun to see things this way, they are actually bowing to the culture, adopting the culture’s point of view.
But the Bible says that God looks at the heart.
That is why as Christians we can hope to perform a balancing act where we read God’s wisdom in telling us to seek freedom from slavery, to owe no man anything, and yet are able to understand the intangible aspects. To use an extreme example given to us by Charles Dickens, Ebenezer Scrooge certainly had no debt, was financially “free” and so on, but he was a miser, without generosity or a care for the welfare of his fellow man. So he passed the no-debt test while failing miserably in the abstracts of the heart.
I’ve been thinking about this conversation since yesterday. I woke up thinking about it. 🙂
One other issue I thought I’d raise is the idea that some of the church’s emphasis on getting out of debt is perhaps a result of many Christians feeling in bondage to their finances. I have met many Christian families who want to live a certain way (i.e., have more children, homeschool, have the wife at home, or whatever), who really and truly cannot due to financial issues. And yet most of these people do NOT have extenuating circumstances, like medical bills to the roof. In fact, one couple that comes to mind brings home three to four times the income my husband does. They simply never learned to manage well, to live within their means.
So while we never want finances to be an idol, of course, learning to manage money with wisdom is probably freeing a number of people up to live the lives they feel called by the Lord to live.
Hold up next to each other the “person” of Ebeneezer Scrooge, and the widow who gave her last two coins. which one was free? and which was bound with “chains of his own forging”?
Mrs N
Oooh…I like it Mrs. N! 🙂
This is certainly an emotional issue for me. In our younger years, my husband and I did not fit in at church because of our much lower financial status. We faked being financially okay just to fit it a little, but people knew we were poor. (I admit I wanted friends and acceptance for our kids)
Now my adult son has told me he has a hard time fitting in to his current church for the same reason. In our area, a big emphasis is put on financial wealth and stability, and the church certainly follows suit. Looking at the elders, leaders, etc.–would they still be in those positions if not financially successful? Would a small group meet at someone’s apartment instead of a home? How come the praise singers always have on new Ann Taylor outfits? Just driving through our parking lot can be intimidating if you have a slightly older/plainer car. It shouldn’t matter, I know.
I am thinking about how people feel “less than” because of their lower financial level. Not poverty–just lower financial level for that particular church! Has anyone changed churches for that reason? Or can you just block it out and not feel bad about yourself?
Ruth
I don’t have much to add to this discussion though I have certainly enjoyed reading it. The one thing that did come to mind for me personally is that I primarily see the emphasis on being debt-free as the mark of a “better” Christian in the blogland world, not in real-life churches that I am or have been involved with. It definitely does seem to be a trend among many bloggers, though.