Something has been on my mind that leads me to make a clarification about Vision Forum for my website readers.
I wrote last April about our decision regarding infant baptism:
We also resolved the issue of infant baptism. This was an issue for us because the church we have been visiting for the past several months is of the Christian Reformed denomination and they baptize infants. When we started visiting there we had no children and, frankly, figured we might never have children. So the baptism thing was a rather non-issue we could choose to ignore. We liked the pastor, the church was close, we liked the smaller congregation, and we liked the service.
Well, enter Peanut on the stage and now we had to decide. We did some reading, had a good conversation with the pastor, and prayed. In the end, we decided that although we understand infant baptism and don’t think it is wrong or sinful (as practiced by those of the Reformed denominations), it was not something we could embrace spiritually. If we lived in a town that only had one good Bible preaching church and it was Reformed, we would go there and “when in Rome do as the Romans do.” We know there are many fine Reformed folks who baptize their babies and we don’t have a problem with it.
But since we do have other options, we are more comfortable with the practice of believer’s baptism which means we are heading back to the Baptist church we visited last fall. We went there last evening and unless the Lord sends us a big red flag, we are assuming that is where we will be from now on. We would prefer a Reformed and Baptist church, but the only one in our city is way too conservative and somber for us. But we are glad to have that decision made even though it was hard to make.
It seems that oftentimes it is easy to let something go until you are forced to make a choice. David and I discussed a lot of things “in theory” in the years before Caroline was conceived, but once she was born it put a whole new light on things. It is one thing to read and discuss ideas, but something completely different to realize those ideas have consequences and you will shape someone’s life by those ideas and related choices.
No Longer Promoting Vision Forum
One thing that I have decided is that I will no longer promote Vision Forum and/or the writings of Doug Phillips here. In the past I have linked to Vision Forum and not thought too much about it, but I find that I can no longer do that in good conscience. David and I are in fundamental disagreement with them regarding some of the views they promote, especially about women. We simply would not raise Caroline according to some of the key teachings they promote. These would include:
- Strongly discouraging women from attending college to the point that attending college and being out from under the father’s immediate supervisory authority is almost seen as sin
- The idea that an unmarried woman should live at home and serve her father until she marries in order to learn how to serve her husband (and if she never marries she still stays home)
- The idea that women should be completely silent in the church – no speaking of any kind
- The idea that a woman is unable to approach the table and take her own communion elements but instead must have them “delivered” by a male (my word, not theirs)
- What David and I view to be an excessive view of male headship in marriage in general
These are just a few things, but they are the most relevant at this juncture. The truth of the matter is that we would not instruct Caroline to follow the ideas I have written above. We deeply desire that she become a godly woman. We desire to raise her to delight in being a female and to enjoy being feminine. We also desire to raise her to be a strong Christian who can think, reason, and hold her own in a theological conversation with women AND men. We want her to understand how to run a home as well as how to be strong spiritually and theologically. We want her to understand the incredible worth Jesus gives to women while still recognizing that there are fundamental differences between men and women.
Vision Forum Controversy
I am sure many people are now aware of the current controversy related to Doug Phillips specifically and Vision Forum in general. I’ve been following it the past couple of weeks, but have not wanted to “get into it” on my blog during Christmas. However, this situation has prodded me to write this post which I probably should have done a while ago.
I do want to make clear that this post is not purely in reaction to the controversy and what I have only read there. David and I have purchased and listened to many CDs from Vision Forum so we are very familiar with the messages they are promoting. We’ve also read Doug’s blog as well as other articles on the Vision Forum site. So this is a post that is based on our first-hand experiences with their materials over the past few years and is not a knee-jerk reaction to the current controversy.
However, I am deeply troubled by the allegations that have surfaced regarding Doug Phillips, the Epsteins, the Allosaur video, etc. I’m disappointed that Doug Phillips and Vision Forum have not personally responded to these allegations. David and I have both suffered through spiritual abuse in two different places and I will freely admit that having experienced it makes me more inclined to believe what I read because so much of it is depressingly familiar. But even if all of the allegations are proved absolutely false, it would not change my feelings on this matter of the teachings on women.
Vision Forum as a Spiritual Stumbling Block
I would be grieved if I learned that someone went to Vision Forum from a link on my site, assumed because I linked that I was in agreement with these views, was influenced to take on some of these views, and it became a stumbling block for them in their faith. I know that many fine brothers and sisters in Christ have been blessed by Vision Forum, but I have also seen first-hand in my own extended family the extreme damage done by some of these teachings. For that reason, I would prefer to distance myself from this ministry. I’m removing the links I have to Vision Forum and I want to express publicly my disagreement with their teachings I mentioned above.
It is my hope that anyone reading this who loves Vision Forum will understand the spirit in which this is written. Just as David and I love our Reformed brothers and sisters in Christ who choose to baptize their infants, we love our brothers and sisters in Christ who choose to perhaps live by some of the views of women mentioned above. I would also be grieved if I discovered someone reading this post felt that I was mocking their beliefs in this area. That is not my intention. I simply want to be “on the record” regarding these issues so anyone who has been coming to my blog will understand where I stand on them.
Thank you for taking the time to read this!
Easy Stromboli Recipe from Gooseberry Patch
Sallie, I’m thinking along the same lines as you are these days, which is where I was 3 years ago before getting entangled in the patriarchy stuff. I’d like to link to this post if you don’t mind.
Kim – Feel free to link if you’ve found this helpful. 🙂
Thank you, Sallie, for your honesty and boldness. It would be very easy to simply quietly remove the links to Vision Forum. I appreciate your thoughtful explanation as to why you are doing so.
I must say that in the past months I too have come to the same place as you regarding VF and Doug Phillips. There are simply too many questionable issues, teachings, and accusations swirling around for me to endorse and support this ministry any longer.
i appreciate this post. i also appreciate how clearly you expressed your reasons here. i always enjoy reading your blog. you are a support to others.
Thank you Sally! I now just how you feel. I too used to think that some of the ultra-conservative ideas (such as those held by Doug Phillips)were pretty good. Then, our ultrasound revealed that we would be having a girl! Amazing how babies change our thinking.
Sally, your blog has become “the” page no 1 I check out when I switch on my computer – thanks for writing and thinking so carefully about so many issues.
Reading this post I just thought – wow, what wonderful parents that peanut has. It is marvellous, how deep you think about rising her and influencing her!
On child baptism: I like your view on that, that you do your own decision but do not judge about those who do not agree on that.
I am god-mother to a now four year old “princess”, who was baptized as baby. And I enjoyed the ceremony, since she was mainly blessed during the service and the baptism seemed to be the “outer sign” for this.
Nevertheless I prefer what my parents decided for me: not baptizing me a kid. I decided to have myself baptized at age of fourteen and this changed my life.
But I remember that my granddad was very sad about this decision – he believed, if I died as a kid, I would not be saved and it was a tough thing for him to accept my parents believes.
Thanks for sharing and a Happy New Year to you and your family.
I’m so glad you posted on this, and touched on the issue of women. I’ve posted on the stuff with VF too, but haven’t gotten into some of the more troubling aspects of their theology on gender roles (aka, the complete and total subordination of women to men–not just husband’s and wives, but a woman is not to have authority over a man, period—see their Tenants of Biblical Patriarchy).
Anyways, thanks.
Sally, oh, I’d love to get into a discussion on the wonders of infant baptism, but I also don’t want to cause you in any way to think that your decision is wrong. 🙂 You have made a decision that best fits with who you are as a family and as believers. and THAT to me is the more important aspect of things. That your little Caroline grow up to be a person who knows and loves and respects God and her place in His creation is the most important thing.
Thank you for this post.
Sometimes I’ve wondered why I enjoy your blog so much when you and I are different in many ways. Reading this I realized why: You don’t fit neatly in a container somewhere. You really think about each issue and decide what you believe, rather than going with the flow. That’s probably why you have had such a hard time finding a church where you feel at home. Even though the specifics are different, you and I are alike in that we don’t fit perfectly in any one Christian category.
(Hope that makes sense.)
I would like to hear sometime what your specific views are on women speaking in the church and female leadership.
Thank you, Sallie–well-spoken and gracious, as always.
I hadn’t heard of any of the allegations against VS. I am very disturbed by them. I have never agreed with 100% of VS teaching, but I always thought it to be a good ministry, overall. If they are guilty of lying and deceit… this is REALLY bad.
I am Presbyterian married to a Baptist. The baptism thing came up after our first child was born. I submitted to my husband’s decision, of course.
Sallie, you’ve summed up my feelings in such a much nicer way. I’ve been one to read and purchase materials from VF in the past and I have become troubled by recent events and some of the particular CD teachings I’ve listened to as well.
The Lord’s Supper was/is a gift for all believers, man or woman. I just keep thinking to myself, didn’t Christ come to us to tear down the veil that seperated us from God? Didn’t he die for ALL of us, giving ALL of us access to the Father through Him?
These “extra-Biblical” additions that VF is promoting and teaching are troublesome on several levels.
I pray that the allegations against VF and Doug Phillips are not true. I would like to hope they are not, but sadly, it is looking more and more like it is true. We’re all man, and we’re all sinful. We are guilty of putting leaders on a pedestal and forgetting they are as guilty of sinning as we all are. Sometimes, when a big leader like Doug Phillips falls off that pedestal, we’re aghast and forget he’s just a man. My prayer is that if it is all true, he’ll apologize and repent as we all should before the Lord.
I think your post highlighting disagreements with the teaching is excellent. Years ago I read in Doug’s blog that an unmarried woman is to remain under the “headship” of her father, that one aspect of headship is protection, and “protection requires proximity.” That was the argument leading up to why unmarried women need to remain near their fathers.
A lot of the teaching sounds good, but it isn’t necessarily the way things have to be, or even ought to be in each family situation, biblically speaking.
Thanks for this post. I didn’t know anything about this — but we’ve received their catalogue in the past and have used some of their materials. You’ve definitely given me a reason to do some more investigating on my own.
Ladies – Thank you so much for your comments. I’m glad that what I articulated here was helpful to others.
Jeana – That was one of the nicest compliments I’ve received in a long time and I truly appreciate it. My dad and mom tried to raise me to think for myself so I’m sure they’ll be “proud” parents to read your comments. I still struggle with the fear of man at times like everyone, but I think I’m getting bolder in my old age. 🙂 (And I FINALLY got my award on my sidebar although I noticed it says Two Talent Living on your blog.)
Very well-stated.
Hello! thanks for this post. I found some excellent teaching about women in the church by Granted Ministries. Here is the link: http://www.grantedministries.org/articlesTitle.php
scroll down to Silent Sisters by Jon Zen. It is very balanced. Our Lord never intended the hyper legalism we are seeing in places like VF.
Oh, you’re right! When I did that you were still Two Talent Living. I’ve added the name-change and updated the link.
Well put Sallie. I truly appreciate and admire the way in which you approach “touchy” subjects such as this one; with a fair mind and an honest heart. That really shows through in this blog and I know that Caroline will benefit from having such thoughtful and purposeful thinking parents.
My best to your family for a joyful 2007.
Wow…these articles kind of grabbed me!
Christian Graduations and Young Ladies
SOPS for Household Management
My Father’s Daughter
A Special Word for Proverbs 31 Tomboys
So…
1.) A boy graduates when he graduates, but a girl is not mature until she can be given to another man?
2.) Even though the home is the be the woman’s “place”…her husband will be the one making the “to-do” lists and making sure she is in step with his plans?
3.) A girl should not only dress modestly…but also in keeping with her father’s version of “girliness”? (why is he looking at his pre-teen daughters so much in this way?)
4.) Being a tomboy is going against God’s plan for you?
Not to be un-Christian or to not allow differences between men and women…but I find this disturbing.
Kristen – I wanted to explain why I didn’t approve your comment. There was nothing inappropriate in what you wrote. However, I made the decision when I wrote my original post that I was not going to do any linking to any of the controversy stuff. I decided that anyone who is computer savvy enough to read my blog is savvy enough to use Google and look for the information if they really want it. I also did not link because the point of my post is that I fundamentally disagree with some of VF’s teachings on women. I don’t want this thread to drift into a discussion of the controversy. There are other blogs that are discussing it if anyone wants to discuss those points. Molly in comment #7 has a discussion going on and might be a good place to start. You can click on her name and go to her blog. I hope you understand why I made this decision. 🙂
Hi, I commented rather lengthily on this the other day but then my computer froze up and I could get it to post.
But basically I totally agree with you regarding the Vision Forum, I think that some of the teaching is dangerous mostly because it is taught as if it were bibical truth rather than opinion.
As for the baptism of babies, I agree that only an adult can be baptised on the basis of their faith because very young children won’t have yet made that step. We do baptise babies thought at our church as a welcoming into the Body of Christ and then if they stay and grow into the faith then they are offered adult full immersion baptism.
Happy New Year 🙂
p.s. I want to keep my decorations up too, and yes I want some snow as well!!
*Sigh* I wish ALL of the members of the church could just get along…wouldn’t that be a nice thought?
Sallie, thanks for being so brave in a sea of bloggers who are unwilling to accept ‘the way things are now’. Yes, biblical womanhood is an important idea for us to grasp, and even more important to pass on to our daughters…however, I don’t feel that going to college makes you sinful, or that if I’m wearing pants I’m any less a woman (‘…and ain’t I a woman!?’…). Thank you for speaking up…it takes a brave person to do so. I’ve known more ‘Biblically correct’ women from IVCF in college than I have in the fundamental Christian realm. For their teachings, guidance, and friendship, I am truly grateful. 🙂
It is a pity that VF is abusing their ministry in such a way. It really is.
An excellent post. You have expressed what I have been pondering over the past few weeks. I’ve been struggling with these issues for months and have recently come to believe that I need the encouragement of godly women who are walking by faith by the Grace of God in these hard areas of life. Thank you for your word.