I am already loving the True Womanhood group blog where I can participate but am not responsible for running it or responding to every comment. I can also discuss theological topics over there without having to “live with it” like I do here (as David explains it).
I had my next post already figured out for over there, but Karen beat me to the topic when responding to another post! She went ahead and started a new discussion called “What does it mean to be a woman instead of a man?”
This is a broader question than the one I was going to ask, but a good one nonetheless. Here are my comments:
Karen,
You stole my next post!!! LOL!!!
You wrote: “I would feel called the same way Elizabeth Elliott feels called when she speaks to a group of both men and women in a church service. (BTW, most patriarchs routinely do not place the same restrictions on Elliott as they do other women and I still haven’t figured out why.”
I have never been able to get anyone to give me a satisfactory answer to this question. I once asked this question on a patriarchal board and almost no one would even touch it.
I think Elisabeth Eliott is a good example because only the most extremely conservative folks would doubt her commitment to biblical femininity, the Bible, the family, etc.
I asked where they would draw the line. Would they read an EE book? Would they listen to her speak on the radio? Would they go to hear her speak at a weekend conference? Would they listen to her speak in a mixed Sunday School class? Would they listen to her give a brief devotional in the service? Would they listen to her if she was the main speaker in the service instead of having a sermon?
Where do you draw the line? (I mean you generally, not you specifically, Karen.) If she is presenting exactly the same information each time, why is it ok to read it in a book and not listen to it in a SS class? Why can she speak it on the radio, but not from a pulpit?
I would love for someone to give me a good, biblical explanation for this because I haven’t found a good one from any camp.
If you would find this an interesting discussion, feel free to click over.
How We Did Bottle Feeding
I have read, though I can’t remember where, that she aims her talks and radio programs, etc., at women, and if men want to listen along, that’s fine. But I don’t think she thinks of herself or tries to be a teacher of men.
I’d draw the line at preaching.
Because Scripture draws the line at preaching.
Sallie, I think this is a really good point to raise. I have often been surprised and a bit confused at people’s lack of consistency in this area. When we hear about great Christian evangelical women in the past, I wonder if we in the church today are getting a bit legalistic about what women can and can’t do?
I was at a women’s conference recently where the emphasis was on complementarian teaching, male leadership etc, and then in the midst of this there was a very moving video interview with the missionary doctor Helen Roseveare, who taught men and women in Africa especially in the 1960s. There was also some teaching about the life of Frances Ridley Havergald who preached evangelistically to mixed groups in the nineteenth century. I was inspired by both these examples but it struck me as strange (and a bit of a cop-out) that nobody addressed the fact that their ministries weren’t in line with what we were being told was the pattern of ministry God has for women. Would young women like them today have similar opportunities to serve or would they be encouraged to focus on serving at home etc? Is that right? I look forward to hearing other people’s thoughts on this!
I used EE as an example because she is a well-known speaker/writer, but the point I was trying to make isn’t so much about her specifically as much as about any woman who has particular gifts.
I’m trying to point out the inconsistency in the thinking and practice in so many churches and Christians’ lives. Kate brought up one of my other issues. Why is it that women can go to other countries and teach and plant churches (and have for generations), come home and give an “update” from the pulpit, be lauded for their work on behalf of Christ, but they would never be allowed to “preach” from the pulpit? I’m not necessarily advocating women preaching because this is one issue I have not completely sorted out yet. But I can’t find anyone who can give me a compelling argument to sway me one way or the other.
Marie, I am not attacking you with this next comment so please don’t take it this way. But for people to say that a woman can do anything up to preaching doesn’t seem consistent to me either. Why can a woman write an article and have it published in a magazine or write a book, but she couldn’t give that exact same information in the form of a sermon? Why is it ok for her to teach it in a mixed SS class but not from a pulpit?
It seems to me the only people who are really consistent in their teaching and practice are the ones who literally don’t let women speak at all and that I find to not be Scriptural either so I know that can’t be right.
I find it frustrating that most conservative, Bible preaching churches won’t touch this issue because there are a lot of women for which this is a critical question for them in terms of how they are able to use their gifts. When we were looking for a church, we had one pastor tell us that he just will not address the issue of women in the church and their roles. Period. Huh? This was a very good church in so many respects, but this pastor wasn’t going to deal with how to lead half of the people in his flock. At another church where we were members, David and I spoke with our SS teacher (who was also a deacon/elder and had a seminary degree) about how I could use my gifts in the class and church. He could not give me a good answer about why men with obviously no gift of teaching were being allowed to teach our class and a woman with a proven gift of teaching would not be allowed to teach the class because she was a woman. When pressed, he told us that he hadn’t studied the issue of women and their gifts because it was too controversial. What? You have a sister in Christ standing before you, wanting to serve in the church and you won’t even help her try to figure out what is appropriate because it might make you uncomfortable? Yes, I feel the love.
Well, I’m getting long-winded, but as you can tell this issue really gets me going! 😀
I’m sure you know the Scriptures involved, but I Timothy 2:12 says, “But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.” I don’t see how we can get around that to say a women ought to be able to teach a mixed group — this expressly forbids it. I don’t look at women in other countries or from the past who taught, preached, established churches, etc., and think, “Hey, they did it and were blessed and God used them, so why can’t we?” I think instead that God used them in spite of the fact that they weren’t quite right in this (there are many examples of His doing the same thing with males — using them despite obvious flaws). This was what I was referring to with my comment about Elisabeth Elliot above — just as an example — that her ministry was aimed to teaching women, and if men listened or read along, well, then, that’s up to them. I don’t see, based on that Scripture, how we can do it any other way. The issue is not whether I am more qualified or gifted than the available males or how I can best use my gifts — but rather, how does God want me to use my gifts. Since He made “the rules,” so to speak, then I need to not chafe against not being able to teach men but rather to seek exactly how He wants me to employ that gift.
What I wrestle with is what it means for the woman to be silent in the church as the above Scripture instructs. I Cor. 11:5 says, “But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.” The context is in a mixed assembly partaking of communion, and the woman is praying and prophesying, so she’s not totally silent. I’ve brought this up in Christian message boards and with my pastor with no real explanation of how to reconcile these two passages. I guess part of it would depend on what “prophesying” means there — whether it is one of the sign gifts, like tongues, or whether it is “forth-telling” as some explain it rather than “fore-telling.” I think this is where some get the basis for allowing a woman to give a testimony or a single lady missionary to give a report. It is more of a “This is what God has done” type of testimony rather than a teaching/preaching issue.
When it comes to women’s writings, I think the same thing applies. If I were to write anything along the lines of a Bible study book or a “this is what Scripture says about this issue” book, it would be aimed at women. But a biography or a story or a testimony type of book could be aimed at anyone.
Barbara,
Thanks for your comments. You also brought up another one of the inconsistencies. People will point to the passage in 1 Timothy, but how do you reconcile it with the passage in 1 Corinthians 11 (and others that haven’t been mentioned)? And how many churches today let women pray and prophesy when it is clear they were doing it in Corinth?
The truth of the matter is that I have done speaking and taught mixed groups in a number of different settings. I’ve done it through the clear empowering of the Holy Spirit and I’ve seen God work through those times. I have felt no conviction that this is wrong or unbiblcal. The question I wrestle with is what to do with those gifts in an ongoing way.
I’m going to close the comments to this thread because I don’t want to get into a discussion of it here. As I said at the beginning of this post, this is why I enjoy being on the TW blog. I can participate in discussions, start discussions, etc. but I do not have to be soley responsible for them like I would here. I don’t have time to keep up with something like this on my own and I definitely don’t have the time to keep up with parallel discussions on two blogs.
I think in the future I will just direct folks to interesting discussions at TW, but will close that post to comments. I’m glad for the comments here, but I have to be careful about what I try to accomplish on AGH and detailed theological discussions isn’t one of them.
Thanks, ladies!