I’ve been splitting my mental energy between March Madness and sorting through the reading I’ve been doing on the church. If you are a newer reader you might not be totally aware of my love of college basketball. It is the only sport I follow. I follow MSU football, but I don’t follow college football. I follow the Detroit Tigers, but I don’t follow MLB. I follow college basketball quite closely for a middle aged woman who never played any sports. LOL! I did quite well on my brackets to this point. All of my Final Four teams are still alive (MSU, OSU, UNC and UK) and seven of my Elite Eight teams are still alive (missed on Missouri).
Anyway, on to more important matters like the body of Christ, trends in Christianity, and more drivel from Mark Driscoll.
Some of you are probably wondering why I continue to bring up all this negative stuff about the church. My purpose isn’t to be negative. It is to drag the yuck being spoken in Christian circles out into the light and exposing the destructive teachings that they are. I believe anyone who reads this little blog is deeply interested in knowing truth while they follow Christ. And so I’m sharing some of the things I find. I share what I find to make people aware and see how God will lead them. I only wish I could spend a few hours each day writing here because, frankly, the amount of info I’m trying to process is unbelievable. I had a two and a half hour phone conversation with an online friend the other day and I continue to be amazed at how there are so many people finally starting to put two and two together in many of these areas. It’s as though we’ve reached a proverbial tipping point with some of these issues and God is now starting to reveal some of what has been going on.
Anyway, here is another video of Mark Driscoll decrying the chick-i-fied version of the church. But the clincher is at the end. Watch the brief video and then read on below the embedded video.
Video no longer available
Did you get that? The comment at the end? If you don’t get the young men, you don’t get anything. What was he referring to? Young men get married, make money, make babies, build companies, buy real estate, etc. They are going to make the culture. And if you don’t get that, you don’t get anything. Hey! Widows, unmarried folks, single moms, retirees, etc. You are nothing! If you aren’t connected to a young man and what he is going to accomplish in his life, you frankly don’t mean much to Mark Driscoll.
Those were his words, not mine. Building up the church is about grabbing control of the culture through the young men, not bringing the lost to Christ. Getting to those men (not women) with power and connections is apparently what matters, not freeing someone from the bondage and despair of sin. If you are a married woman, Driscoll sees the way to get to you and your children is through your husband. That’s what he said. You are simply the extra prize, not the real goal. And notice it is men who build culture, not women.
And that’s not even touching on the rest of the video where being a godly man means you apparently punch people in the face, own a truck, and shoot a gun. And that sixty percent of the church is “chicks.” Sorry, Driscoll the Dude, I’m not a “chick” and I don’t think most women in the church would appreciate being referred to in that manner. You say your views on masculinity and women are supposed to be great for the church and great for women, but I don’t see how viewing your sisters in Christ as “chicks” and saying it in such a derogatory manner does anything to advance the cause of Christ.
There is a huge shift going on among the most vocal complementarians. It is profound. I don’t think this has trickled down yet into most of the mainstream complementarians which is what I would consider most of the comps with whom I interact.
But the leadership in this area is changing the debate, changing the parameters, and redefining the terms. I really do believe we are heading toward the point where your views on men and women’s roles will be used by many Christians to determine if you are actually a true Christian. Confessing your faith in Christ will not be enough for them. Think I’m exaggerating? I’m not.
More on that in the days ahead.
Follow up post: The future of the church courtesy of Acts 29 Network and Mark Driscoll
I’m sucked into this discussion. (Sallie I emailed you something last night, check your spam box if you didn’t get it)
Anyhow, I can’t quit thinking on these things. I’m starting to wonder if home church like the good ole prairie days wouldn’t be best for our family. You know, gather up the neighbors, sing a few songs, have some sharing time, and then head out and go home for a day of rest.
I know this opens up a whole different discussion about assembling with the saints and all – but I can’t help but think redoing church is what it will take for ME to feel good about church ever again. I’ve struggled for the past 4-5 years in this area. Nothing works for me. Nothing 🙁
I’d rather stay home, make a big breakfast for the family, worship outside in my garden and pray as I pull weeds than do status-quo mega church.
Lindsey – I did get your email last night just before going to bed. I read the whole thing because I could not stop. Then I tried to go to sleep and my brain wouldn’t shut down.
Here is the link Lindsey sent me: My Story from Joyful Exiles. It is the story of one of the pastors run out of Mars Hill. The other pastor came out with his story about a month or so ago.
They are also discussing it over at The Wartburg Watch today at Former Mars Hill Pastor, Paul Petry, Starts Joyful Exiles, Startling Revelations.
I continue to just marvel at the similarities between these Mars Hills stories and our own experience with spiritual abuse when David and I met and decided to pursue marriage. Our was minor compared to what these pastors experienced, but the same kinds of tactics, reasoning, and wrong doing are there. I said to him again last night how I feel like we have come full circle. It is so validating to read these stories and know it wasn’t just us. Leaders in these authoritarian, charismatic and Reformed circles employ the same tactics again and again.
Some of you will read this story and think it couldn’t possibly be true. I read it and felt like I was reading the story of a kindred spirit. I understood the emotions, the efforts, the reasoning, the denial, the numbness… all of it.
Lindsey – I’ll respond to the rest of your question in a bit. Have to run.
Lindsey – I did get your email last night just before going to bed. I read the whole thing because I could not stop. Then I tried to go to sleep and my brain wouldn’t shut down.
Here is the link Lindsey sent me: My Story from Joyful Exiles. It is the story of one of the pastors run out of Mars Hill. The other pastor came out with his story about a month or so ago.
They are also discussing it over at The Wartburg Watch today at Former Mars Hill Pastor, Paul Petry, Starts Joyful Exiles, Startling Revelations.
I continue to just marvel at the similarities between these Mars Hills stories and our own experience with spiritual abuse when David and I met and decided to pursue marriage. Our was minor compared to what these pastors experienced, but the same kinds of tactics, reasoning, and wrong doing are there. I said to him again last night how I feel like we have come full circle. It is so validating to read these stories and know it wasn’t just us. Leaders in these authoritarian, charismatic and Reformed circles employ the same tactics again and again.
Some of you will read this story and think it couldn’t possibly be true. I read it and felt like I was reading the story of a kindred spirit. I understood the emotions, the efforts, the reasoning, the denial, the numbness… all of it.
Lindsey – I’ll respond to the rest of your question in a bit. Have to run.
Wade Burleson has written an excellent piece today in Memo to Mars Hill; The Suppression of Church Women is Not the Cure for the Feminization of the Church. From the post:
And…
I truly do believe a revolution is taking place. And it gives me great hope that Caroline will grow up into a church that is far more healthy than what it is today.
Wade Burleson has written an excellent piece today in Memo to Mars Hill; The Suppression of Church Women is Not the Cure for the Feminization of the Church. From the post:
And…
I truly do believe a revolution is taking place. And it gives me great hope that Caroline will grow up into a church that is far more healthy than what it is today.
Lindsey wrote:
Believe me, I do understand. David and I have talked in the past about the Ingalls being on the prairie.
I don’t know what the answer is. We go to a good church, but I don’t feel connected. Like I highlighted in another post, I feel most compelled to go because I have a child. It isn’t that I don’t love God or feel like I am losing my faith. My faith in God and the work of Christ on the cross has never been stronger. My conviction that I want to use my gifts has not wavered. I’m just tired of “doing church” and going through the motions. I’m tired of walking through the landmines and trying not to get blown up. We hit one landmine last spring and it pretty much took the last bit out of me. (Yes, I’m being vague on purpose.)
I don’t know what the answer is, Lindsey. All I know is we aren’t the only ones asking these questions. And I do find comfort in that. It isn’t just you and it isn’t just me. There are a whole lot of us asking the same questions.
Lindsey wrote:
Believe me, I do understand. David and I have talked in the past about the Ingalls being on the prairie.
I don’t know what the answer is. We go to a good church, but I don’t feel connected. Like I highlighted in another post, I feel most compelled to go because I have a child. It isn’t that I don’t love God or feel like I am losing my faith. My faith in God and the work of Christ on the cross has never been stronger. My conviction that I want to use my gifts has not wavered. I’m just tired of “doing church” and going through the motions. I’m tired of walking through the landmines and trying not to get blown up. We hit one landmine last spring and it pretty much took the last bit out of me. (Yes, I’m being vague on purpose.)
I don’t know what the answer is, Lindsey. All I know is we aren’t the only ones asking these questions. And I do find comfort in that. It isn’t just you and it isn’t just me. There are a whole lot of us asking the same questions.
Sallie, so glad you shared your thoughts on this along with the many informative links. I never have had anyone answer exactly what “feminization of the church” actually means. Usually I hear something about pastel colors or bouquets of flowers on the communion table. And why is feminine wrong? Girl stuff = bad, boy stuff = good? I don’t get it. I really don’t know why everything is assigned a gender, as if it were a French noun. Isn’t it interesting that we don’t see ANY of this in Jesus’ ministry? So, so weary of it all. I fully understand why women are leaving the organized church in droves…..this stuff is far weirder than it was 6 or 7 years ago when we first started writing about it, Sallie! And where is a conservative, pro-life, pro-family woman with gifts supposed to belong?
Sallie, so glad you shared your thoughts on this along with the many informative links. I never have had anyone answer exactly what “feminization of the church” actually means. Usually I hear something about pastel colors or bouquets of flowers on the communion table. And why is feminine wrong? Girl stuff = bad, boy stuff = good? I don’t get it. I really don’t know why everything is assigned a gender, as if it were a French noun. Isn’t it interesting that we don’t see ANY of this in Jesus’ ministry? So, so weary of it all. I fully understand why women are leaving the organized church in droves…..this stuff is far weirder than it was 6 or 7 years ago when we first started writing about it, Sallie! And where is a conservative, pro-life, pro-family woman with gifts supposed to belong?
Flowers on the communion table!??!?!?!??!?! Oh the drama!!!!! Oh the humanity!!!!! What next? Ironed linens? Polished silver? Homemade bread? Will it never end?!?!?!??!?!??!??!?!?
Considering Jesus went to great pains to provide us with a world replete with gorgeous flowers, I highly doubt He would think twice about them being on the communion table. I would even venture a guess He might approve and appreciate the artistic touch in which the church members utilized HIS CREATION.
Flowers on the communion table!??!?!?!??!?! Oh the drama!!!!! Oh the humanity!!!!! What next? Ironed linens? Polished silver? Homemade bread? Will it never end?!?!?!??!?!??!??!?!?
Considering Jesus went to great pains to provide us with a world replete with gorgeous flowers, I highly doubt He would think twice about them being on the communion table. I would even venture a guess He might approve and appreciate the artistic touch in which the church members utilized HIS CREATION.
Here’s a link from WW directly to the new bylaws document from Mars Hill. THAT huge document alone poses so many ? in my mind I can’t think straight!
http://joyfulexiles.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/elders-response-to-questions-11-9-07.pdf
Here’s a link from WW directly to the new bylaws document from Mars Hill. THAT huge document alone poses so many ? in my mind I can’t think straight!
http://joyfulexiles.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/elders-response-to-questions-11-9-07.pdf
“Young men get married, make money, make babies, build companies, buy real estate…”
Honestly, that sounds a lot like the Proverbs 31 woman.
“Young men get married, make money, make babies, build companies, buy real estate…”
Honestly, that sounds a lot like the Proverbs 31 woman.
For the win! Great point!
For the win! Great point!
In thinking about the communion complaint… It’s funny that anyone would complain about flowers when one could make the argument that the real problem is that we do communion all wrong. With Jesus is was part a meal, not a formal ceremony with silver trays and nasty cheap white bread. I think you can make an argument as well for doing communion weekly, but the regular response is that it isn’t convenient and won’t be as meaningful if it is done regularly.
If men want to complain about something related to communion, why don’t they look at the bigger issues related to it rather than focusing on the fact that they don’t like foo foo stuff on the table.
Just another example of focusing on all the wrong things while churches fall apart around us.
In thinking about the communion complaint… It’s funny that anyone would complain about flowers when one could make the argument that the real problem is that we do communion all wrong. With Jesus is was part a meal, not a formal ceremony with silver trays and nasty cheap white bread. I think you can make an argument as well for doing communion weekly, but the regular response is that it isn’t convenient and won’t be as meaningful if it is done regularly.
If men want to complain about something related to communion, why don’t they look at the bigger issues related to it rather than focusing on the fact that they don’t like foo foo stuff on the table.
Just another example of focusing on all the wrong things while churches fall apart around us.
We’re already there with Young Earth Creationism and Pre-Trib Rapture; why not Male Supremacy as well?
We’re already there with Young Earth Creationism and Pre-Trib Rapture; why not Male Supremacy as well?
Feminization of the church!? The church is losing due to the power of women?
How Ridiculous!
My CPA said this to me one day, and I laughed out loud. Here’s our conversation summarized.
CPA — The church is too feminine.
Me — Really? What percentage of churches have male senior pastors?
CPA — 91%
Me — Right. Now what percent of churches have a mostly male elder board or presbytery?
CPA — I’d guess more than 80%.
Me — So what sex has decision making power?
CPA — Men
Me — What sex has financial power?
CPA — Men
Me — Come back when that ratio gets back to 50-50.
Sallie, A delightful read. You make some significant points about this issue. One of my favorite insights that you gave was:
“Why is the church “feminized”? Why not just say the church is full of a bunch of cowards and intellectual and spiritual weaklings? Isn’t that more what it is? And if the church is full of cowards and weaklings, why is that a “feminine” trait?
Men are the ones running things and have been forever. If the church is soft, who is to blame? And why is it a “women problem” if the men are running things? I just don’t buy the feminization argument any longer (as you can probably tell!).”
That certainly sums things up when you step back and get an overview. I like your style. You and others who comment here are onto something! Keep up the good work! We’re all in this together!
Sallie, A delightful read. You make some significant points about this issue. One of my favorite insights that you gave was:
“Why is the church “feminized”? Why not just say the church is full of a bunch of cowards and intellectual and spiritual weaklings? Isn’t that more what it is? And if the church is full of cowards and weaklings, why is that a “feminine” trait?
Men are the ones running things and have been forever. If the church is soft, who is to blame? And why is it a “women problem” if the men are running things? I just don’t buy the feminization argument any longer (as you can probably tell!).”
That certainly sums things up when you step back and get an overview. I like your style. You and others who comment here are onto something! Keep up the good work! We’re all in this together!