Are you familiar with the doctrine of the Eternal Subordination of the Son (ESS)? Do you agree with it or not? Are you aware of the controversy surrounding this doctrine?
Here are some explanations of it from both sides of the issue:
- Pro: Council of Biblical Manhood and Womanhood – Eternal Subordination of the Son Part 1
- Con: Ben Witherington – The Eternal Subordination of Christ and Women
Here is an article from Christianity Today about a debate on this topic at Trinity Evangelical Seminary: Anathemas All Around
What are your beliefs? Please vote in the poll and feel free to leave a comment! 🙂
Creative Writing With “The Mysteries of Harris Burdick”
I didn’t answer because mine would be: I have never heard of it, and so I’d have to do some research…but I’m not feeling very motivated right this second.
Is that bad of me? 🙁
Okay. Because I am supposed to be doing something else, I scanned (emphasis on scanned) the articles.
I still choose “other.”
Seems it’s not a simple subject.
Perhaps my catechism will tell me somewhere what to think?? (I kid.)
What I did gather is that some believe that if the Son submits to the Father, this makes Him inferior to the Father, and I don’t think that to be the case. I can submit to, say, the authority of the elders in my church, and I do it by choice as their equal. But does the Son eternally and unalterably submit? I dunno.
All that other stuff that comes as a result of it? Just makes me say hmmm…
Hey Brandy! I knew you would answer, but I have to admit I’m really surprised this topic/controversy is new to you.
I put myself down as “confused” because I had a fairly clear opinion until I started reading about it…
Can I ask a stupid question? How can you believe in ESS and espouse the doctrine of the Trinity? Even Wikipedia says you can’t! (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity and look under “Economic and ontological Trinity”).
Perhaps I am simple minded, but here is my (simple) answer. I believe in the Nicene, Apostles and Athanasian creeds. If it’s not in any of those creeds, I consider it to be a “minor” doctrine that Christians can agree to disagree on. Also, if one can’t espouse any part of any of those creeds, I do not consider them to be a Christian (ie: I do not believe that Mormons are Christians).
Jen C –
That isn’t a stupid question at all and it articulates part of the controversy surrounding this doctrine. It is a key argument being utilized by a number of prominent speakers/pastors/theologians to explain why women are equal but subordinate to men (eternally subordinate according to some). It is being promoted in seminaries through the use of Wayne Grudem’s systematic theology textbook. It is a key teaching amongst the patriarchy movement. It’s out there and becoming more mainstream all the time.
And Christians are worried about Mormons calling themselves Christians and diluting what it means to be Christian (which, for the record, I am worried about)? I’m *much* more concerned about Christians who do not believe in a triune God comprised of 3 equal persons! Without the doctrine of the trinity, I would argue that there really isn’t much to Christianity.
Lord, have mercy on us.
Peggy voted so I can’t! Ha!
At first I thought of voting for “other” because you don’t have an option for “Who gives a beep?” I mean, I’m not trying to be disrespectful, I’m just amazed that people care enough for it to be a controversy.
On the other hand, if the patriarchy movement is for it then I’m against it.
I read a bunch more about it and feel confident enough to say that it’s wrong on the merits, regardless of what the Patriarchalists say.
But if I am wrong, and Jesus is “eternally subordinate” to the Father, that doctrine cannot be used as an excuse to subjugate women. (If you say submission is not subjugation, I agree with you, but what is enforced submission if not subjugation?)
Okay, so I voted that I don’t agree with it and that it is a primary doctrine but if by that you mean, does it mean that people that do believe it are not Christians then I want to amend that 🙂 It is a big deal though, I have been reading more and more theology lately, (studying about possibly becoming a Lutheran, eek! 🙂 ) But one of the things that I really love about them is that they take things that are serious, seriously . . . REALLY seriously, the trinity is one of those things that I would probably go to bat for. But more than that, in this instance, using the scripture to fit your world view (subordination of women, which by the way, in and of its self I don’t have a problem with) it a HUGE deal, that is not treating the Bible the way it should be treated and if it is the way that a “Christian” treats the Bible then there is going to be problems.
(thanks for making me think on a early morning though, I really needed it 🙂 )
On and BTW, my husband, who is not the patriarchal type, does agree with this doctrine, Read the first article and said “well if you drop all the wifely stuff I would be fine with that. 😯
I can think of some Scriptures that might support the idea of Jesus being eternally subordinate to the Father, but I can’t think of any that suggest that women will be subordinate to men in heaven, and I don’t see how the two are related at all.
It does reminds me of James and John requesting seats of honor in heaven, and Jesus pointing out just how much service would be required of them for them to be worthy of that honor…they were seeking status instead of seeking God.
Sorry for the lack of responses. Caroline has some cold thing and I’ve been up with her 5-8 times per night the past three nights. I’m running on very few brain cells and the ones I’m managing to activate I’m using for a work project I need to get done.
Keep the comments coming! I’m really surprised no one has spoken in favor of this doctrine since I know many people agree with it.
I’ve enjoyed reading these comments, even though I’m still fairly ignorant. 🙂
I agreed with what Peggy said–even though some Scriptures may hint that Jesus is eternally submitting to the Father, there aren’t Scriptures which say that women eternally submit to men. At least, not that I’m aware of. Actually, I don’t consider “women” to be required to submit to “men.” Scripture tells us to submit to our own husbands, not men in general. Children submit to their parents. Slaves to their masters. Church members to their elders. And so on. I’m actually quite comfortable with hierarchy, but I don’t see a lot of evidence that these will carry over into the next life. Jesus specifically says we will not marry nor give in marriage, so submitting to husbands seems to be an earthly thing.
I go back and forth on whether this is an essential issue. On the one hand, the Trinity is an essential doctrine. On the other hand, I’m not sure that believing that the Son submits to the Father threatens the doctrine of the Trinity, but I do see that it could, so I suppose it is something to be careful with.
Hmmm…
“Jesus specifically says we will not marry nor give in marriage, so submitting to husbands seems to be an earthly thing.”
Ha! Never thought of this before!