I recently left a comment on another blog that I tend not to read blogs written by younger women. There are exceptions, to be sure, but most of my blog reading is comprised of women who are closer to my own age, give or take several years.
A lot of it has to do with the writing style and focus. You know. Everything is messy. If there is one word that has become overused, I think it is messy. Everything is messy. The Christian life is messy. Messiness abounds. I think it is also related to the wallowing in sin that I wrote about before, but that’s a post for another day.
Jen Hatmaker and Postmodern Thinking
I came across an interesting post entitled Letting Go (archived link) based on a talk given at a MOPS convention. In the talk, Jen Hatmaker outlines the differences between modern and postmodern thinking. I don’t feel comfortable copying the lists and posting them here since they are lengthy, so you’ll have to click over and read them in the post. If you don’t read the lists and the premise of her talk, the rest of this probably won’t make sense.
I think the majority of the people who read this blog are in their thirties, forties, and fifties. I think the vast majority would lean more toward the modern list than the postmodern list. Not entirely, but to a great degree. Even though I clearly identify more with the modern list than the postmodern, it isn’t 100%. The twentysomethings who read here, I suspect, are not as postmodern as their peers. I just don’t think postmodern young adults would relate to how I write and that’s fine.
Modern or Postmodern?
Which leads me to my questions.
Where do you see yourself fitting?
Those of you who have children still at home… Do you see what Hatmaker is talking about in your own children?
I’m wondering how much the pull of the postmodern for youth today is peer driven and if homeschooling has an impact on that. How much of it is media driven?
It isn’t like children wake up and realize they want to be postmodern. That thinking is coming from somewhere. The thoughts are being planted. Where is it coming from? Where is it impacting your family? Are you driving it? Or are you fighting it yourself? Have you reluctantly capitulated?
The Fake Authenticity and Falseness Of Postmodernism
It is interesting that the postmodern is supposed to be all about the authentic (another word I’ve wearied of) and yet I find so much of the postmodern trappings to come across as anything but authentic. I find them really unappealing in so many ways. So Hatmaker’s belief that we as adults with a foot in both the modern and postmodern worlds need to more fully embrace the postmodern for the sake of our children… I don’t know. I guess I’m just not there.
I think it is because there is so much about the postmodern that seems unbiblical to me and so I have no interest in embracing it. But maybe it is because I am so thoroughly modern that I choose not to move past my own views.
It’s interesting being an older parent. I’m 45 with a 5 year old. I cannot even imagine the world that Caroline will have to live in. I can’t even say I’m really excited for her. Truth be told, I actually feel sorry for her at times. I don’t look at her future world with anticipation. Maybe I’m completely wrong, but the future doesn’t look rosy to me as an American, as a Christian, or as a member of the world community.
Is God at work? Absolutely! Is God at work in her life? Yes. But I’m not really excited about the future for her (or me, for that matter). I honestly don’t see postmodernism leading to good things. I know there are people who do, but I’m not one of them.
How are you preparing your children to live in this postmodern world? How are you preparing them to live for Christ in a postmodern world? Do you feel excited for them? Apprehensive? Do you find yourself embracing postmodernism for the sake of your children?
I’d seriously like to hear what people think about this topic.
UPDATE: Don’t miss the excellent conversations in the comments below.
Sallie,
I’ve been reading your blog for years because it makes me think 🙂 However, you know that I only comment on occasion.
I took the time to read through the entire post from the other blog. I had a number of reactions and thoughts.
My overriding reaction is this: Jesus is presented as an experience, not as the Holy King of heaven who came to this earth to die–why? For our sin. While we don’t want to think about sin, we’d just rather think about how “messy” life is, that is the reason He came. Did He minister to physical needs? Yes, of course, but always for the purpose of ultimately meeting spiritual needs–not just to have an experience or to feel good about Himself. Also, while people may try to divide everything up into modern/postmodern, etc., Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever. His Word does not change. So, we continue to emphasize Biblical truth, but as Karen said, we do need to consider the audience. Isn’t that what wisdom is for? Didn’t God said He would give us wisdom when we lack–He’ll give liberally when we ask. So, while the audience certainly has changed, there is nothing new under the sun, and God’s Word is still the same, and He’ll give us the wisdom we need to reach others today and then we’ll glorify Him b/c we’ll know it was His working through us and not our own ability—-long sentence, but I just kept typing what I was thinking 🙂
I love Karen’s comment about things designed to give you a feeling and an impression as opposed to actually making you think. Just have a good experience with Jesus instead of coming before a holy, majestic, and righteous God in repentance. Does He extend grace? Yes. Mercy? Yes. But we need to see the whole counsel of Scripture not just the parts that make us feel good. People are going to hell right off the pews of churches where everything is designed to just make you feel good about yourself. It’s not until I see myself as I really am that I can truly grasp the depth of grace and mercy He has bestowed upon me. And furthermore, I resent the idea that just because you establish boundaries in the lives of your children you are considered a dictator. God established boundaries for us because He loves us.
Lord, help us teach our children to think. And to think Biblically. Everybody runs to the latest thing that makes them feel good as opposed to running to God’s Word. That’s part of why I love your blog, Sallie! It makes me think and it sends me to God’s Word to search things out for myself.
Enough of my thoughts…looking forward to reading your other thoughts, Sallie.
I wanted to point out that John left a great comment yesterday that somehow ended up in the spam folder. Scroll back up if you missed it.
John – Feel free to keep sharing. Excellent food for thought you provided!
I wanted to point out that John left a great comment yesterday that somehow ended up in the spam folder. Scroll back up if you missed it.
John – Feel free to keep sharing. Excellent food for thought you provided!
Okay, jumping around here in no particular order…
And is it cheesy to say how much I really love and appreciate the people who read and comment here? Seriously. My life is so much richer because of the interactions I have here with people I’ve never met and probably never will this side of Heaven. A lot of you know me better than most of my extended family, my church family, and 98% of the people I’ve known in my life.
Here are a few comments that really resonated with me for various reasons…
Brandy said:
Yes. I think this is very true.
Brandy said:
Yes! And I think this has to do with the whole not believing there is Truth. If I can comfortably acknowledge the mess and roll around in it, I get to be spiritual but I don’t have to make the hard decisions about how to deal with it as a mature believer and live in light of the truth.
Brandy said:
This is the conclusion I have come to as well. Just like Karen E said:
I think this is a huge problem. So huge I’m not even sure if most people really understand the magnitude.
Okay, jumping around here in no particular order…
And is it cheesy to say how much I really love and appreciate the people who read and comment here? Seriously. My life is so much richer because of the interactions I have here with people I’ve never met and probably never will this side of Heaven. A lot of you know me better than most of my extended family, my church family, and 98% of the people I’ve known in my life.
Here are a few comments that really resonated with me for various reasons…
Brandy said:
Yes. I think this is very true.
Brandy said:
Yes! And I think this has to do with the whole not believing there is Truth. If I can comfortably acknowledge the mess and roll around in it, I get to be spiritual but I don’t have to make the hard decisions about how to deal with it as a mature believer and live in light of the truth.
Brandy said:
This is the conclusion I have come to as well. Just like Karen E said:
I think this is a huge problem. So huge I’m not even sure if most people really understand the magnitude.
Lindsey said:
LOL! I think so too! Except for the beach and Duke thing. 😉
I was thinking about the comments left here by all the “old souls” which is pretty much all of us. Even those under 40 who comment here I think are wise beyond their years, mostly due to the suffering and hardships they have experienced. If some thoroughly postmodern young women read what we are discussing here, I think it would immediately be dismissed out of hand. Why? Because we just “don’t get it”.
Part of the consequence of postmodernism among the younger set today is they don’t pick apart the arguments, wrestle with truth, etc. Why? Because in their mind there is no point. The highest good is to feel (as Karen pointed out in that great example) and connect. So you can read a post written in the most emotional way that yields very little meat for growth and it receives dozens of comments about people “feeling” the same way. People feel something and therefore the post has value. And yet it often ends there. But if it doesn’t change them in some way, make them think or something, does it really have much value?
Lindsey said:
LOL! I think so too! Except for the beach and Duke thing. 😉
I was thinking about the comments left here by all the “old souls” which is pretty much all of us. Even those under 40 who comment here I think are wise beyond their years, mostly due to the suffering and hardships they have experienced. If some thoroughly postmodern young women read what we are discussing here, I think it would immediately be dismissed out of hand. Why? Because we just “don’t get it”.
Part of the consequence of postmodernism among the younger set today is they don’t pick apart the arguments, wrestle with truth, etc. Why? Because in their mind there is no point. The highest good is to feel (as Karen pointed out in that great example) and connect. So you can read a post written in the most emotional way that yields very little meat for growth and it receives dozens of comments about people “feeling” the same way. People feel something and therefore the post has value. And yet it often ends there. But if it doesn’t change them in some way, make them think or something, does it really have much value?
(I’m trying to group my thoughts in different comments so if anyone responds it is easier to do so.)
One of the problems I’ve also seen developing among blogs written by younger women is what I thought was a lack of discernment and wisdom. But the more I have thought about it, the more I think it is postmodernism creeping in. The lack of discernment and wisdom comes into play as well, but it is the postmodern mindset driving it.
Here’s an example.
I sometimes find good stuff written about the complementarian versus egalitarian debate, but I am not willing to link to some of the blogs because of deep concerns I have over much of the rest of the blog content. I see young women embracing egalitarianism for practical reasons and as a reaction against the culture, not because through diligent study and prayer they have come to the conclusion is it true and biblical. This seems to lead to a careless mishandling of other Scripture to the point where they entertain some views and beliefs that I think are flat out unbiblical.
This then creates an interesting situation in the circles where people discuss these issues. You have younger people who embrace egalitarianism out of a response to culture in many ways. They are very pragmatic in their decision. Then you have others (usually older, but not always) who do deep research that results in well thought out theological responses to the question. Unfortunately it is the pragmatic bloggers who get the most face time online and I think it undermines the egalitarian position. Their tossing off of basically everything that has any hint of tradition in it creates a stumbling blog for those who are more traditional and are aghast at some of what passes for biblical thinking.
(I’m trying to group my thoughts in different comments so if anyone responds it is easier to do so.)
One of the problems I’ve also seen developing among blogs written by younger women is what I thought was a lack of discernment and wisdom. But the more I have thought about it, the more I think it is postmodernism creeping in. The lack of discernment and wisdom comes into play as well, but it is the postmodern mindset driving it.
Here’s an example.
I sometimes find good stuff written about the complementarian versus egalitarian debate, but I am not willing to link to some of the blogs because of deep concerns I have over much of the rest of the blog content. I see young women embracing egalitarianism for practical reasons and as a reaction against the culture, not because through diligent study and prayer they have come to the conclusion is it true and biblical. This seems to lead to a careless mishandling of other Scripture to the point where they entertain some views and beliefs that I think are flat out unbiblical.
This then creates an interesting situation in the circles where people discuss these issues. You have younger people who embrace egalitarianism out of a response to culture in many ways. They are very pragmatic in their decision. Then you have others (usually older, but not always) who do deep research that results in well thought out theological responses to the question. Unfortunately it is the pragmatic bloggers who get the most face time online and I think it undermines the egalitarian position. Their tossing off of basically everything that has any hint of tradition in it creates a stumbling blog for those who are more traditional and are aghast at some of what passes for biblical thinking.
I don’t think we are supposed to really do anything with the information given to us. The feeling is the end in itself. Watch this, it will make you “feel” better!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSXYHqs0KPo
I don’t think we are supposed to really do anything with the information given to us. The feeling is the end in itself. Watch this, it will make you “feel” better!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSXYHqs0KPo
Becky said:
Do you ever hang out over at The Wartburg Watch? You would love some of the discussions over there about authority in the church. I’ve been thinking long and hard about this issue the past few months. Wade Burleson has also had some excellent thoughts on this topic recently.
It’s funny that you said most churches are still modern in their thinking because David and I have been wrestling with this a great deal the past few months. We would really like to be in a church in the Cute Little Town now that we live here. We want to worship where we live and get to know people. We want Caroline to make friends here in Cute Little Town. Driving back to the Big City for church has a number of drawbacks.
I went through the listings for all the churches in the greater Cute Little Town area and was so discouraged. If I eliminate the ones where we simply would not fit in theologically at all, we are left with a list that I can break down into three general camps: postmodern, postmodern and need earplugs, and patriarchal/authoritarian.
It seems like churches are going one of two ways – totally postmodern including super casual and loud music OR entrenching more and more in the modern, strong complementarian (bordering on authoritarian) view with lots of push towards authority structures. It’s so obvious on the websites when you look at them. Mark Driscoll wannabe pastors. Light shows. Or churches heavy on parenting books, Proverbs 31 women, etc. Churches are either running full tilt to postmodern or they are digging their heels into what I think are some of the worst parts of the modern viewpoint.
The number one thing that has the potential to stress me out as a mother? Where to take Caroline to church. We won’t go to a church that is authoritarian. Period. We won’t go to a large, bring your earplugs church. Period. Seriously, what do we do? I really feel like we are at this huge crossroads and it is maddening. On top of that, our church has no program for children Caroline’s age in the summer. So for the next four months it’s full service with a spirited five year old. I told David this is why families end up in the big churches with big children’s programs. I DO NOT want to do that. Period.
Yes, the church thing really hits me hard right now.
Becky said:
Do you ever hang out over at The Wartburg Watch? You would love some of the discussions over there about authority in the church. I’ve been thinking long and hard about this issue the past few months. Wade Burleson has also had some excellent thoughts on this topic recently.
It’s funny that you said most churches are still modern in their thinking because David and I have been wrestling with this a great deal the past few months. We would really like to be in a church in the Cute Little Town now that we live here. We want to worship where we live and get to know people. We want Caroline to make friends here in Cute Little Town. Driving back to the Big City for church has a number of drawbacks.
I went through the listings for all the churches in the greater Cute Little Town area and was so discouraged. If I eliminate the ones where we simply would not fit in theologically at all, we are left with a list that I can break down into three general camps: postmodern, postmodern and need earplugs, and patriarchal/authoritarian.
It seems like churches are going one of two ways – totally postmodern including super casual and loud music OR entrenching more and more in the modern, strong complementarian (bordering on authoritarian) view with lots of push towards authority structures. It’s so obvious on the websites when you look at them. Mark Driscoll wannabe pastors. Light shows. Or churches heavy on parenting books, Proverbs 31 women, etc. Churches are either running full tilt to postmodern or they are digging their heels into what I think are some of the worst parts of the modern viewpoint.
The number one thing that has the potential to stress me out as a mother? Where to take Caroline to church. We won’t go to a church that is authoritarian. Period. We won’t go to a large, bring your earplugs church. Period. Seriously, what do we do? I really feel like we are at this huge crossroads and it is maddening. On top of that, our church has no program for children Caroline’s age in the summer. So for the next four months it’s full service with a spirited five year old. I told David this is why families end up in the big churches with big children’s programs. I DO NOT want to do that. Period.
Yes, the church thing really hits me hard right now.
John – I have to really think through your post and digest it!
John – I have to really think through your post and digest it!
I just took a link to a link to a link and ended up on a live performance, I mean worship service, with “How Great is Our God.” As I’m looking at the hundred person choir, full band, and twelve member worship team with lighting effects, stage, ultra-cool clothing, flashing lights, and advanced graphics the thought came to me.
If the “congregation” came back the next week and all the trapping were permanently gone, how many people would come back the next week? Would it be enough to simply sing “How Great is Our God” acapella or with a guitar without all the show? How many people there think the “feeling” they are getting from the “experience” is Christianity? How many of them are, as Karen said up above, going to hell in the pew, er, folding chair?
I’m not saying that all the trappings are evil or that no one there loves God. I am saying that if the postmoderns are relying on (as Hatmaker said) “spirituality, experience, community, betterment of the world, justice, creativity, relative truth, environmentalism, globalism, deconstruction/skepticism, and authenticity”… I fear for their souls.
You can have all the experience and feelings and community in the world. But if it isn’t rooted in the Truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, you have NOTHING.
I just took a link to a link to a link and ended up on a live performance, I mean worship service, with “How Great is Our God.” As I’m looking at the hundred person choir, full band, and twelve member worship team with lighting effects, stage, ultra-cool clothing, flashing lights, and advanced graphics the thought came to me.
If the “congregation” came back the next week and all the trapping were permanently gone, how many people would come back the next week? Would it be enough to simply sing “How Great is Our God” acapella or with a guitar without all the show? How many people there think the “feeling” they are getting from the “experience” is Christianity? How many of them are, as Karen said up above, going to hell in the pew, er, folding chair?
I’m not saying that all the trappings are evil or that no one there loves God. I am saying that if the postmoderns are relying on (as Hatmaker said) “spirituality, experience, community, betterment of the world, justice, creativity, relative truth, environmentalism, globalism, deconstruction/skepticism, and authenticity”… I fear for their souls.
You can have all the experience and feelings and community in the world. But if it isn’t rooted in the Truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, you have NOTHING.
Karen said:
That is a great clip! I could hardly tell it was Meryl Streep. Wow.
As an aside… I saw Margaret Thatcher when she came to Hillsdale College the year I was teaching at the Academy. The Academy children sang for her. The only thing that would have made it better was if Reagan had been there too! LOL!
Okay, sorry for the rabbit trail! 🙂
Karen said:
That is a great clip! I could hardly tell it was Meryl Streep. Wow.
As an aside… I saw Margaret Thatcher when she came to Hillsdale College the year I was teaching at the Academy. The Academy children sang for her. The only thing that would have made it better was if Reagan had been there too! LOL!
Okay, sorry for the rabbit trail! 🙂
I live in Cute LIttle Town Too, North Carolina. 🙂 We have lots of little churches around. But most of them we won’t go to for several reasons:
1. They are dying. Quite literally. We walk in the doors and we are the only people under the age of 60. No kids for our kids, etc.
2. They are independent fundamentalist baptist churches. I call them “sacrificial chicken churches” because sometimes they do that on the altar on Sunday. Or handle snakes. Or weird stuff like that. God bless ’em, but that isn’t me and I will never be one of those independent baptist women. EVER.
3. They are spiritually dead.
I’d like to find a good church in Cute Little Town Too. I just don’t know where it is and if it exists. I’m sadly so *over* church right now. I don’t even make excuses for it anymore. Currently our Sunday mornings consist of making pancakes together, working in the yard and garden, and having praise and worship at home in our own ways. I’d love for my husband to jump in and do some kind of service but that hasn’t happened and I’m not pushing. It is what it is.
I live in Cute LIttle Town Too, North Carolina. 🙂 We have lots of little churches around. But most of them we won’t go to for several reasons:
1. They are dying. Quite literally. We walk in the doors and we are the only people under the age of 60. No kids for our kids, etc.
2. They are independent fundamentalist baptist churches. I call them “sacrificial chicken churches” because sometimes they do that on the altar on Sunday. Or handle snakes. Or weird stuff like that. God bless ’em, but that isn’t me and I will never be one of those independent baptist women. EVER.
3. They are spiritually dead.
I’d like to find a good church in Cute Little Town Too. I just don’t know where it is and if it exists. I’m sadly so *over* church right now. I don’t even make excuses for it anymore. Currently our Sunday mornings consist of making pancakes together, working in the yard and garden, and having praise and worship at home in our own ways. I’d love for my husband to jump in and do some kind of service but that hasn’t happened and I’m not pushing. It is what it is.
I see a number of different threads running through the whole thing (messiness!).
But then when I look back at the time of Jesus and the early Church…. Jesus overturned and confounded all the expectations of the Jewish religious authorities (and literally overturned the tables of the traders in the Temple). Paul was converted through a very intense personal experience, not through his extensive education as a Pharisee. The early Church was led by the Holy Spirit and the apostles, and the systematic theology and creeds came later. I recently read a book by a postmodernist Christian that looked at all the cooperative efforts (versus authority-driven ones) in the Bible. So there are some points where we can connect with postmodernist feelings.
I see a number of different threads running through the whole thing (messiness!).
But then when I look back at the time of Jesus and the early Church…. Jesus overturned and confounded all the expectations of the Jewish religious authorities (and literally overturned the tables of the traders in the Temple). Paul was converted through a very intense personal experience, not through his extensive education as a Pharisee. The early Church was led by the Holy Spirit and the apostles, and the systematic theology and creeds came later. I recently read a book by a postmodernist Christian that looked at all the cooperative efforts (versus authority-driven ones) in the Bible. So there are some points where we can connect with postmodernist feelings.
Yes, I subscribed to Wartburg Watch on my google reader about a year ago and heard about Wade Burleson through them as well.
My perspective on churches probably has a lot to do with the fact that I live in a rural area, far from any big cities. Churches are pretty traditional here and there’s not a lot of postmodernism around. Our church is 10 minutes from home and we like it and have many good friends there…so far the downsides haven’t been enough of an issue to make us pick up and leave. I really don’t know where we’d go if we left.
Yes, I subscribed to Wartburg Watch on my google reader about a year ago and heard about Wade Burleson through them as well.
My perspective on churches probably has a lot to do with the fact that I live in a rural area, far from any big cities. Churches are pretty traditional here and there’s not a lot of postmodernism around. Our church is 10 minutes from home and we like it and have many good friends there…so far the downsides haven’t been enough of an issue to make us pick up and leave. I really don’t know where we’d go if we left.